R77 & AIM120 "MAGIC" FOV's

[4c САВО СРПСКИ]

This subject has been discussed on our squad forum, while our squad mate =4c= Aleksa has giving us attention to a serious problem that he found out.

 

As he does not speak english very good, he asked me to translate the post he wanted to submit here.

 

So here it is:

 

=4c= Aleksa wrote:

 

I will start first with few questions:

 

What is the FOV (Field of View) of ARH (Active Radar Homing) missiles?

 

What is the range of ARH missiles depending on the target aspects (H2H or 6'o'clock)?

 

Does the H2H target have the same signalisation on the ARH missile radar as the 6'o'clock target?

 

 

here below Im giving you the link to a track that I've made where you can clearly see that the AIM120 & R77 have a FOV of much more than 120 degrees, wich imo seems to be crazy.

You can also see how an ARH missile change the route for 90 degrees once it has aquired a target in its radar.

 

What appears to me, is that the ARH missiles have a 180 degrees FOV, horizontal and vertical.... quiet deadly.

also, that means that only MIG29 n' F-15 are the planes to choose for AA combats in LOCK ON, because they can carry ARH missiles, while the SU27 & SU33 can't.

You just have to fire ARH missiles, turn your back and let the missiles with their "magic" FOV do the job, without taking any risks. easy, isn't it?

 

Tell me if it's me that drinked too much of Sljivovitsa and saying nonsense or something needs to be done in order to correct that huge bug.

 

 

here's the link to the tracks I've made :

 

http://www.4c-squad.co.yu/temp/aleksa/fov.zip

[4c САВО СРПСКИ]

could someone from ED advise if the above explained is a bug or not.

And if yes, would it be fixed.

 

thanking you in advance

[169th_DedCat]

There were an enormous amount of replies to the double of this thread you posted in the general forum. Didn't you see them?

[4с САВО СРПСКИ]

yes I did, but in the pile of replies, I didnt found the one to the main question:

 

Is it a bug or not, and if yes, will it be corrected.

 

The fact is that actually the R77 & AIM120 seems to react like having a FOV of 180 degrees, and it is demonstrated in the tracks.

 

That makes them exageretdly deadly imo, and in a way it is killing the pleasure of BVR combats for SU-27/33 pilots that are flying against MIG-29 & F-15's.

[GGTharos]

Um...really, while those missiles need to be updated to more realistic seeker simulation (IMHO!) it wouldn't change what yuo're expereincing very much. Killbox scanning and look-ahead functions would still have you sitting in the seeker's FoV most of the time ... bad deal compounded by a bad deal. Makes better use of your range :D

[SwingKid]

Killbox scanning and look-ahead functions...

 

Where can we read more about these? Never heard of them...

 

-SK

[GGTharos]

You can't - at least, the sources that I know of come from thigns I've read a long itme ago and unoficially ... however, these things actually make a lot of sense.

 

Consider that:

 

You want the weapon to track a specific target

You want the weapon to find this target (initially, after spoofing, etc)

You are limited by the amount of time you can scan a certian volume of space

You are limite by the amount of time that the target takes to exit tha volume of space (radius of volume of space where you find target in grows in proportion to target's speed)

 

 

Your solution to all these:

 

Have the seeker 'looking' towards where it expects to find the target. if your dat's up-to-the-millisecond, you automatically see your target.

 

If you have lag time between say, TWS updates and last time you 'saw' your target was 5 sec ago, you need to scan a volume with radius of target speed in m/s times 5s to find your target (tack on the number of seconds it takes to scan ... integrals may come in handy here). This si the 'killbox'

 

What this does: You're only looking at the space of where the target CAN be. THis minimizes search time.

 

you can minimize search tiem FURTHER by making a simple assumption:

 

'Look ahead' in a straight line since the last update from teh last position of target to where you expect it to be. you will most likely find it there, if not, search the killbox.

 

Now, suppose that seekers work the way I think I do and you can blind'em with chaff. Once the missile realizes it's blinded, it immidiately 'looks ahead', then it starts searching the killbox while trying to avoid the chaff position if it can help it.

 

Intelligent search algorithms.

 

You can also perform 'look ahead' in aircraft radars when a target beams you in an attempt to find the target aircraft.

 

 

In short, I hear this is used, and it also makes sense ... but I can't provide you with any solid leads on this for now - maybe someone else can?

[4с САВО СРПСКИ]

I dont know if you guys have had a look on the tracks...

 

FOV of ARH missiles = 12 degrees

gimbals = +- 180 degrees

 

question: what is FOV

answer: Field of View (of the missile)

 

question2: what is gimbals?

articulation of the missiles radar helping the fov to keep the look on the target

(correct me if Im wrong, at least it is how I understand it so far)

 

Now, what you can clearly see in the tracks provided is that ARH missiles fired without radar lock, are finding a target that is way too much away of the 12 degrees of missiles FOV.

 

It-s like the gimbals and the fov are merged while the radar is seeking, I mean before locking the target.

 

If it is really so, then it means that the missiles has the ability to see everything in the sphere of 192 degrees.... how would you escape to that?

 

So I repeat again the question, is what you are seing in the tracks something correct or is it a bug?

 

An additional question, that is linked to this issue, is:

How does the gimbals works?

I mean, when are they starting to work? are they starting once the FOV of the missile has found the target, or immediatly after the launch... Im talking now about missiles fired without target locked from planes radar.

[SwingKid]

You want the weapon to track a specific target

You want the weapon to find this target (initially, after spoofing, etc)

You are limited by the amount of time you can scan a certian volume of space

You are limite by the amount of time that the target takes to exit tha volume of space (radius of volume of space where you find target in grows in proportion to target's speed)

 

Ah ok you were talking about a normal intercept.

 

I thought we were talking about the radar missile seeker doing some kind of scanning without a fighter tracked target. I'm a little fuzzy on the precise mechanics of the often-talked-about "mad-dog"/"bull-dog"/"pit-bull" (?) mode.

 

-SK

[GGTharos]

THis also applies after there is no support (ie. support handed off or weapon Mad-dogged) BUT /after/ a target has been acquired ... so either the aircraft is guiding the missile, or the missile isn't receiving datalink but it already acquired on its own within the seeker's FoV (which would be straight ahead if mad-dogged) but once it does acquire that target it is then sensible for it to use its advanced functions to keep a track on it.

 

Yeah, you're right, I didn't really mean anything unusual. one thin you could consider though would be g-load info from the launching aircraft during a mad-dog dictating a quick 'vs like' search for the target if you assume that the target had to be in the center of the HUD when you fired. May or may not be a good assumption, though...