The F-15 Golden Eagle vs. the F/A-18E Super Hornet

[SgtPappy]

It was only recently when the F-15 was finally fitted with the newest of AESA radar systems the U.S. has to offer - the APG-63(V)3.

 

From what I've managed to gather, there's virtually no information on this version of the -63 which I could find.

 

My question is how it stacks up against similar radar systems around the world, and more specifically, how an F-15 fitted with said radar would stack up against something like a Rafale, Typhoon or Super Hornet.

 

The Super Hornet itself is easiest to compare as I've found more info on its APG-79; a system that is probably not as good as the -63(V)3 (pure speculation, given that the -63(V)3 is apparently an F-15 radar system with APG-79 tech). The Super Hornet is claimed to have a small RCS inthe magnitude of around 0.1 sq.m while the F-15 has a gigantic 15-25 sq. m RCS. These are clean figures, however, and when the two aircraft carry missiles, their RCS is to go up dramatically. Still though, it's likely that the Super Hornet would still have a tiny RCS compared to the Eagle. Thus, I've come to question whether the F-15's impressive new radar system is offset by its humongous RCS.

 

Would an F-15 fitted with the APG-63(V)3 be able to take down an F/A-18E with an APG-79? Would the two aircraft be able to track each other far before within firing range? Or would an F-15 simply not know what hit it?

 

 

From this chart I've found, the -63(V)2 is similar in performance to the -79. Given the Hornet's small RCS, it looks like the Hornet has the advantage until the -63(V)3 was installed. The diagram simply states 'Detection/Tracking Range'. I'm not sure as to what mode the radar systems were assumed to be in when the graph was plotted.

Edited October 25, 2010 by SgtPappy

[topol-m]

The F-15 equipped with APG-63(V)3 will be superior to the Super hornet in air combat, but I`ll leave it to GGTharos to explain why in detail :)

[Groove]

Is this picture from Dr. Kopp?

[GGTharos]

Yep, the picture is from Kopp :D

 

Thanks topol - yep, the F-15's antenna is much, much larger which pretty much makes it more effective at range compared to a similar, smaller radar.

There are other things that Golden Eagles an superbugs have in terms of avionics that further make them quite interesting; there are things onboard that I don't even know what they're for.

 

While the F-15 has the bigger dish, the superbug may actually have more advanced avionics overall.

[SgtPappy]

Yea, apparently the Golden Eagle's got some 1500 T/R tile modules for the current (V)3 while the Super Hornet has around 1100 elements. Now that everything's getting AESA antennas installed, I suppose cooling is the biggest problem... that's where the F-15 has plenty of space.

 

But even though the F-15 has a superior antenna (and a similar processor as the APG-79), it's also got a massive RCS. Will that not offset its advantage versus a tiny, reduced-RCS F/A-18E?

[GGTharos]

The number of TR elements is certainly important, but when it comes to range/power your rule-of-thumb measure is the dish diameter.

 

The F-18's RCS certainly makes things a little bit tougher, but the F-15 will still rule the BVR arena kinematically as long as this merely reduces them to 'equal' in terms of radar capability.

 

Both aircraft carry capable jammers.

[SgtPappy]

Ah gotcha. Boeing likes to advertise that Raytheon's new radar systems can detect 'LO platforms'. Sounds like propaganda.

 

Anyway, I do suspect that when both have missiles, neither will be in range to fire until they've detected each other. By this time, the Eagle's superior performance - like you stated, GGTharos - will allow the Eagle the advantage.

 

In a Red Flag excercise though, I bet a clean Hornet could get lucky and get into firing position just when a Golden Eagle detects it.

[GGTharos]

Sure they can ... when they get close enough :D

 

In any case, it's hard to get any info on the BVR arena - it is mostly classified, and you rarely even get to really hear much of anything about it from Red Flags. Or maybe I haven't looked hard enough.

[SgtPappy]

I would suspect that. Tile AESA antennas are pretty new and awesome.

 

I guess that's why it's easier to stick to analyzing planes before 5th generation platforms decided to blow everything out of proportion.

[RIPTIDE]

Is this picture from Dr. Kopp?

Ya. Its gotta be true.

[bumfire]

Ah, the Harrier would pwn both :)

[GGTharos]

The modeling isn't challenging. What is challenging is knowing the actual RCS from every angle, on a per-degree or even every five degree basis so it can be input into the radar model. Without this knowledge, what's the point?

 

Nevertheless, would be even cooler though to see an indirectly propotional or hyperbolic realation between RCS and Range modeled in sims, whereas RCS itself is excistent or modeled and not a constant, meaning RCS changes with deflection or surface position if you will. Surely not to forget the standart parameters like closure, clutter and other important variables already attempted to implement in regards to simulated radar keynotes and capabilities. Now, wouldn´t that be a nice challange to create a resources (cpu) effective formula, which interacts in dynamic sequences, yet responsive enough, rather then by static border- or condition-definitions which are commonly used at this moment :), with few exceptions ;)

Actually, i think that wouldn´t be that difficult in general at all, but the one able to framework that in a coding environment is yet to be found :D

[GGTharos]

Given the 'average' RCS graph you could -guess- RCS values for jets maybe within every 30 deg, or even every 10, in 360 deg, but this is two-dimentional only.

 

And actually yes, the RCS figures are classified - I know, I've looked, and I've asked! :) I was interested in the same sort of modeling.

[SgtPappy]

Yikes... I don't think it can be as simple as projecting every surface onto a 2D plane. If it were, you'd detect a stealth aircraft no matter what direction it was facing, provided that your radar waves hit it.

 

The angle must affect the incident and reflected waves. Plus, interference patterns of waves would have to be modeled as that is an important part of radar mechanics, but I'm no modeling expert. Just a guess...

[RIPTIDE]

That is why you need to work with declassified RCS diagrams ( which are available btw GG ;) ) and simplified implementaions in modelling aswell in order to get a reasonable functional end-result in a sim.

There is plenty of very good material and literature out there (which many of those i have) who address the question of moddeling radars, RCS and etc in a simulated environemt. I think the trick here will be to come to a logic end-result avoiding too complex approaches.

 

PS: A F22 i.e. is very stealthy from frontal view, doesn´t mean it still is very stealthy banking into you and showing you its whole beauty and silhouette.

Years ago Janes Fighters Anthology had a very simplified approach. When you were flying the stealth craft (the ones available were B2 and F22), in the RCS window when you banked the RCS model would widen and allow you to be locked if near bandits. Weapons bay doors, brakes etc would also widen the RCS model.

[power5]

Wow, F22 has some range.