MANPAD

[arteedecco]

Hi all! I've been trying to search for a comprehensive thread covering MANPADs, but have had little success, so I wanted to start one.

 

[For SAM tactics: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=72951]

 

I think people grasp the idea of radar-based SAMs as you generally get an indication in the cockpit on the RWR plus an audible indication.

 

Generally, when cruising around at medium-to-high altitude (above approx. 10,000 MSL) you avoid the MANPAD threat.

 

Some (debatable) assumptions:

 

1. A-10 was designed for low-level armor busting
   
   • Puts A-10 within the engagement / threat envelope for MANPADs
     

 

[*]A-10 is relatively ill-suited for SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses) / DEAD (Destruction of Enemy Air Defenses) missions due to low-speed / power, directly influencing poor survivability against many SAM threats

My questions into the A-10 tactics versus the MANPAD threat came after flying the Operation First Strike mission where Colt and Tusk flights both involve flight plans at low level through mountainous terrain at low-level where there are enemy MANPADs en-route.

 

Thread concerning the MANPAD threat in Operation First Strike:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1182681&postcount=32

 

From what I can discern the best overall tactics are:

 

1. Avoid detection
   
2. Know the engagement parameters, threat envelopes, and limitations of the various potential MANPAD weapon systems
   
3. Have an evasion plan and be familiar with evasion tactics
   

So, my question is concerning item #1 and #3 from my list above:

 

1. How do you avoid MANPAD detection if you're flying NOE (Nap Of the Earth) in a valley along your planned route and there are MANPADs along that route?
   
2. If you DO get launched on by a MANPAD what do you do to evade? (note: excessive climbing above the altitude of the valley rim is not an option due to SAM (SA-6) threat).
   
   • Also, in my experience flares are relatively useless against most modern MANPAD systems which are optical / laser guided systems and therefore immune to flares (chaff is useless against MANPAD, which *do not* use radar)
     
   • Seems only hope to avoid destruction is:
     
   1. 
      
   2. Use terrain to mask LOS (Line Of Sight) with MANPAD operator
      
   3. Aggressive maneuvering to defeat operator ability to track
      
   4. (possibly) use terrain as camouflage against visually guided MANPAD launch from side / above
      

    

    

   For NOE, what altitude (AGL, Above Ground Level, Radar altitude) do you fly at to minimize MANPAD engagement threat?

    

   Or is it better to fly as high as possible w/out de-masking from terrain and exposing to radar-guided SAM threat?

    

   Is it better to fly in the middle of a valley or up against the side of the valley (inside or outside of turns) to reduce exposure time to MANPADs?

    

   Best way to cross ridges?

    

   Can MANPAD shoot down on you from above successfully (e.g. you're in a valley and MANPAD is up on ridge above), or does the terrain break-up the shape of the aircraft sufficiently to defeat acquisition?

    

   What is best 2-ship formation and separation (lateral distance) to mitigate MANPAD threat?

    

   Does having cockpit OR external lights "ON" (in-game) affect acquisition capability / time to acquire of MANPADs?

    

   Obviously in RL the A-10 losses are expected to be much higher than other a/c types because you are flying w/in AAA, MANPAD, and radar SAM threat envelopes (nevermind bird-strikes, wire strikes, weather, terrain considerations at low-level). I assume that Colt Flight's mission in Operation First Strike is fairly unrealistic as your goal is to take out an SA-6; a decidedly SEAD / DEAD mission.

    

   I know I wrote a lot, but I'm hoping this thread can become a good resource for pilots to reference as they try to develop intermediate / advanced skills. I see a lot of people just fly high and use weapons at stand-off ranges, which works if major SAM systems and attack / intercept aircraft are not present. In reality (I stipulate), the A-10 may often be required to strike and perform its duties, while SAM, AAA, and aircraft threats are still present, thereby mandating that the A-10 operate as a low-level, ingress under radar, terrain-masking brute.

    

   I appreciate all thoughtful responses!

Edited April 28, 2011 by arteedecco
Adding link to related thread concerning SAM tactics

[NoJoe]

In a general sense, I've found that denying a launch in the first place has been my best hope of MANPAD survival. If I know there are MANPADs in the area I'll switch to Manual countermeasures in mode "M" (1 flare per second) and start releasing when running in (that is, when running in on a bomb or gun run, or any time I'm down in their engagement envelope).

 

Of course, I'm not sure what to do then if a missile IS launched at me... Switch over to mode "C"? This doesn't really give any good easy answers to your post, Arteedecco, but maybe it's a kind of philosophy that pilots can use:

 

Deny launch in the first place, by doing these:

1. Flying higher than the MANPAD engagement altitude, if SAM situation permits,

2. Using terrain masking to keep your flight away from known threats,

3. Using pre-emptive flares (one per second with Mode "M") to deny lock when unable to do the first two.

 

If they do manage to launch on me I typically do a descending break into (toward) the missile to put it on my beam (directly off to my left or right) while dumping flares. I do this because I don't want to point the back of my engines at the missile: the MANPAD missile will be IR and that would give it a pair of nice big bright hot engines to look at! Instead I'll give it my front, which is cooler. As I continue my turn I'm also showing the missile the bottom of my plane which is where my flares are coming from. This way I'm putting flares between me and the missile, hopefully helping the missile lose me. The geometry of the turn also helps: by turning toward the missile I'm making it turn harder to stay on an intercept course. Hopefully this will bleed energy from the missile and make it less maneuverable for the next step:

 

If it's still guiding on me I'll do a climbing break into the missile again as it arrives at me (if I still have visual). Hopefully it doesn't hit. It's certainly not foolproof, but... At least it gives me a fighting chance.

 

--NoJoe

Edited April 26, 2011 by NoJoe

[Frederf]

NOE flying is supposed to get you on top of a target so suddenly that enemy reaction time is the main advantage. In real life the SA-8 takes minutes to set up from rolling, in DCS it's seconds. A Strela should take 13 seconds to fire down to 6 if it's already shouldered and ready. I think in DCS it's less than 5 seconds. That's just how DCS is.

 

MANPADSs at least in DCS are all IR guided. There are no laser/optical systems. Flares are always of some but not spectacular use against these. One could also use flares to delay the time an IR SAM is locked and fired if DCS modeled this but it doesn't. If it was an option one might do a flare every 1-1.5 seconds on a long CMS program from IP to target.

 

MANPADSs should be able to shoot down as well. I figure in real life that terrain could reduce the IR contrast somewhat but I doubt it has any effect in DCS.

 

I tend to fly in the 100-300' block when NOE. 300' on low level navigation to IP and 100' on the attack run. I bust down to 70-80' on some crossings and obstacles. Crossing ridges is best done at 45-60 degrees off axis and make sure to pop up early enough to roll up to 120 and pull down on the other side. It's better to be high on the near side and hug the back slope than the other way.

 

External lights do make you more visible to AI.

 

Spread formation (spread 4 or abreast) means the AD has to pick two threats that show up at the same time. Trail means they can attack them one and then the other. Wingman away from threat if known or expected.

 

If I make it seem like I have this down to do safely and easily, don't believe it. Some missions are just made beyond the scope of plausible success and tangling with anything at low level is hard in real life and harder in DCS. A pre-planned strike in a high threat environment will have 10 hours of 10 officers going over maps and tables before you step and as much support as the USAF can muster. In DCS you have whatever the mission maker thought up and the AI SEAD. Good luck!

[Scarface]

CMS Set to AUTO in unknown threat area.

CMS Set to SEMI in known threat and set to appropriate profile.

If you know there are MANPADS in a valley, I wouldn't go into said valley. Attack from a safe alt, and if you can't do that you need some SEAD flights or you should abort.

If you think there are MANPADS in your path, it would be wise to preemptively pop flares as you fly through the area.

Evasion is luck more than anything in a confined space to go defensive. And typically you will get launched on more than once and the second one has a better pk on you after you maneuvered against the first.

 

Minimizing the chances of being fired at is the best bet.

[arteedecco]

This is a video shot by Geskes

 

Times: 2:15 and 6:00

 

a0ct7Lu_kAA

 

It seems in this video that he is just driving along (can you see what his countermeasures are doing???) at very low level and avoiding MANPAD shots w/out really doing much. I'm assuming he's either in AUTO or SEMI (which is it?). He is staying below 300R (usually around 130R) in general and doing no ridge crossings.

 

The rest of his YouTube stuff: http://www.youtube.com/user/geskes

Edited April 27, 2011 by arteedecco
Video embedded.