How to fight threats displayed in the ALR?

[arteedecco]

TrackIR. Without it the whole conversation of spotting SAM launches / AAA is exponentially more difficult.

 

Someone else said it, but you have to know your threats. There's a limit of what is out there to shoot at you and what the game encompasses that reduces that further. Download your threat guide and you will start to learn what is what, when to take action, what action is appropriate, and how to avoid the fight when you don't want it and how to have it when you do. Link here: http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1117116&postcount=1

 

Read more posts on the subject, here's a good one that got me started: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=72951&highlight=threat+guide

 

Once you've read the threat guide you realize things like, an "A" on the RWR is going to be a Shilka, which is radar guided AAA with a max elevation of 8K feet above its starting altitude and a max range of 1.5miles. So what? If you're at 7000 feet you can pop a zoom climb and bust out of his envelope in a second. As long as you take evasive maneuvers you're gonna survive, just make sure you are proceeding away from him in general, but he does have a relatively short range. If you enter his envelope at treetop level doing 250knots groundspeed, you're moving 4.2 nautical miles per minute, which means you'll cross through his 3 mile bubble in under a minute (43 seconds) if you do nothing else.

 

Fight when you want to:

To me this means if I'm flying over 10K feet above the ground you don't have to worry about the Shilka AND I don't have to worry about MANPADs, unless you want to. Get above 12K feet and the SA13/SA9 Strela's are out of the picture. When you want to look for trouble, get down into the enemy threat envelope, but on the edge to reduce the probability of their acquisition / PK of their shots. It is dang tough finding a single unit in a city and I've died many times trying or being reckless. Operation Saturn is a great example to use to try SEAD against Shilka and Strela (but Strela are a different story as they're IR; no RWR). Get down and fly near cities (not over) and wait for the "A" and beep on your RWR. Usually, it'll occur after you've passed them as it takes a bit for them to acquire you and begin tracking you. As soon as they do note the position on the RWR and look in the direction outside. It helps if you have the presence of mind to quickly hit the MRK up front display button under the HUD to create a markpoint at your current position and then note the bearing on your HSI to the target (happens quick, but you're just getting a start). Fly out away from the threat, u-turn, and maneuver to approach the markpoint you set on the heading (bearing) you noted to the target when you set the markpoint. Scan your TGP AND EYES out away from your markpoint as you approach. Keep in mind that the range of the Strela is only 1.5 miles so he won't be far. Get used to what 1 - 2 miles looks like by referencing markpoints (waypoints) and your distance from them. You'll be surprised how close 1 mile is when you're looking outside for things. Also consider that the airframe will block (the nose of the aircraft) your view as you approach head on so offsetting some is useful, just be conscious of it and factor it in to where you're looking. If you can't locate the Shilka fly near his likely position and wait for the RWR to light up again, look outside as you maneuver and look for the tracers. Etc.

 

With the Strela the whole operation is much more dicey as you won't get a launch warning until the missile is on the way. Couple that with the short engagement range of Strela (2.3 - 3 miles) and you have very little time to be looking around setting markpoints, etc. However, Strela like to pop off missiles so unfortunately chances are you'll get multiple launches. Good news is you'll have a better chance of spotting the plume! :) Anyhow, as you maneuver dumping flares, look outside for those trails. Remember that their range is 2.3 - 3 miles so you shouldn't be looking way out there, but rather close... unfortunately for you. Maneuvering and dumping flares seems pretty effective vs. Strela, but you do have to react aggressively. Sometimes you will get a circle "L" on your RWR when you're being lased, you can use that to help locate them. It is sometimes tough to tell the difference between a MANPAD and a Strela shot, but generally Strela shoot a lot faster comparatively, so if you're getting multiple launches in short order it's a good bet it's a Strela.

 

Locating Strela and MANPADs is downright tough unless their shooting so I consider them pretty mean threats. However, their shots seem fairly survivable if you're using flares and putting your moves on em.

 

SA-11, S-300, SA-6 get into the mud and get something between you and the missile or poof. For these bad boys realize they are much larger setups and generally you won't be flying into a place with 5 or more of these just sitting about. Usually mission designers are courteous enough to only place one or 3 about in areas they want to make either "off limits" or very tough targets. This goes to the whole Intel discussion. Know your threat environment. A RL pilot would not just go hop in an A-10 without being briefed on intel, especially not without SEAD cover and just go roaming about looking for targets. Good way to turn a Hog into a nice assortment of parts and make a SAM operator's day. Fly Operation First Strike as Dodge flight. Excllent mission and is where I cut my teeth against an SA-6. Terrain masking, pop-up Maverick shot on Radar of SA-6 FTW! Also In The Weeds is an excellent SEAD practice mission IMO. With SA-6 if you're buzzing along and you get an "S6"... LOL realize that's a Tunguska! haha How many times have I been mistaken! But!! If you see the "6" pull a 180 and run for cover. For the most part the game is not modelling smart SAM operators who wait for your flight to get well into their engagement envelope before flipping on the lights. Also, moving SAM / AAA generally don't track / shoot and then move / go silent... thank goodness. Except that nasty SA-15 / SA-19 combo in First Strike! Yargh!!!

 

Now... Tunguska (SA-19). Nasty little bugger, but avoidable. Get up above him by going up over 20K feet and you're in hog heaven... though it'll take about 10+ minutes depending upon fuel and weapons loadout. You can even get above the SA-8 with it's 23K max altitude. He apparently is easy to break lock with, but ... don't forget he hits higher than the Tunguska. SA-19, SA-8, SA-15 all have similar range of 7 miles, which... you may note is just a little shorter reach (especially climbing up to altitude) than your Maverick going downhill, especially from high altitude. So... against such nasty targets as these you must be careful finding them, but since their missiles go much further you have a lot longer to see them coming and hopefully get an ID on the location of the SAM launcher.

 

My technique vs. those three (19, 8, 15) is to get up above 20K, approach them in a descent constantly pushing the TGP fwd-short to attempt to get it to lock up on the SAM. Once it does, rifle, climbing turn to egress 180. Most of the time I get the Maverick off before they can acquire me. The 15 is particularly nasty with his 35K ceiling, so if he shoots well... good luck.

 

Generally if there are others flying either AI or MP pilots watch for the shots against them to ID the meaner SAM systems. If you're running into a waypoint you should really start getting your "Spidy Sense" on at outside of 7 miles and be ready if that RWR goes off.

 

I've heard it before and I like it, but if you're running in an area you are unsure of the threat environment, leave the Countermeasures in Auto. If you get blasted to hell... who cares how many flares and chaff you've got on board. Better to survive, and return the favor to the enemy! Once you're going against a threat you know exists, drop down to SEMI... IMHO.

[GGTharos]

All-aspect missiles still prefer the hot exhaust of jet engines. Hiding them makes spoofing the missile easier.

 

Radar doesn't give a monkeys about engines apart from the returns the engine cowlings will generate, especially poignant to the A10. As for IR missiles, only old IR missiles go for engines. The modern ones go for engines and leading edge heat returns. They are so sensitive that they can detect heat returns from the front of the wings, tail and nose that's why some modern aircraft, especially larger tactical aircraft like the C130s spray complex flare patterns to spoof the modern IR seakers ability to ignore point heat sources like a single or a few flares and favour aeroplane shaped heat sources. Not sure if this is modelled in A10 though. I doubt it. I tried to get info from a Chinook pilot I know about the flare patterns they use but they are classified. Shame - it would have been interesting to find out a bit more about it.

[GGTharos]

... sort of. Not modeled too well (compromises due to seeker code) yet :D

 

Strictly speaking, for IR missiles you should put your belly to them and fire off flares - the A-10's overall design means the engine exhaust isn't visible from below and was one of the selling points of the aircraft, giving it much high survivability against MANPADs as it was harder for them to get and maintain a lock. Whether that's modeled or not I don't know.

[GGTharos]

If all you have left is to commit suicide, sure, point your nose at the incoming missile :P Doesn't much matter what you do after that, unless the missile's already falling out of the sky.

 

u mean put your nose on it, then pitch up? talk about raising your nose at someone! <end cheese>

[GGTharos]

Sure it does :D The spinning blades produce a nice doppler return that allows you to NCTR the aircraft. The fan faces also produce a large return. In the end all of this combines to a large return at distance which will only break up into the strongest reflectors on the aircraft when you get closer. Probably so close that it won't matter.

 

does radar care at all about engines? or does it go for center of aircraft?

[Wayc00lio]

All-aspect missiles still prefer the hot exhaust of jet engines. Hiding them makes spoofing the missile easier.

 

Well obviously, but the "all aspect" aspect of them is only made possible by them being able to lock the trailing edge heat signatures from a nose on aspect, and a combination of leading edge and exhaust signatures from a 3/9 aspect. Obviously from the rear they will lock onto the exhaust heat cos that is the largest signature. But my point was that older missile systems aren't "all aspect". That was my only point.

 

But you are right though. From a rear aspect they will lock onto the exhaust gasses. The A10 is designed to minimise this to a degree with the placement of the engines being masked by the tail and vertical stabs. But it only works to a degree.

[Snoopy]

Check out this video I uploaded, at about 4 minutes in the pilot locks on to another A-10s exhaust with a training IR mav.

 

k4KgCve4z7M

[Wayc00lio]

Very cool video!!!!

[GGTharos]

Specifically it is made possible by using an IR element that detects the IR frequencies generates by the heating of those parts of the aircraft - but this isn't anywhere near as strong as engine exchaust (Why am I being so pedantic about it? The nitty-gritty makes a difference when trying to model missile seekers and countermeasures, and it should dictate your evasive actions - but this is mostly n/a DCS for now). I've even seen FPA-based missiles go for the exchaust on 3/9 aproaches, but you can obviously make them smarter than that.

 

 

Well obviously, but the "all aspect" aspect of them is only made possible by them being able to lock the trailing edge heat signatures from a nose on aspect, and a combination of leading edge and exhaust signatures from a 3/9 aspect. Obviously from the rear they will lock onto the exhaust heat cos that is the largest signature. But my point was that older missile systems aren't "all aspect". That was my only point.

 

 

As long as your enemy isn't using CCD/FPA type seekers, it should work quite well in conjunction with flares.

 

But you are right though. From a rear aspect they will lock onto the exhaust gasses. The A10 is designed to minimise this to a degree with the placement of the engines being masked by the tail and vertical stabs. But it only works to a degree.

[GGTharos]

Cool! That is as it should be :D Contrast feature tracking.

 

Check out this video I uploaded, at about 4 minutes in the pilot locks on to another A-10s exhaust with a training IR mav.

[Wayc00lio]

Great info there. I promise I'm not arguing a point, I obviously don't know everything about these things and want to learn more and your post just then has taught me more. Thanks buddy ;-)

 

Specifically it is made possible by using an IR element that detects the IR frequencies generates by the heating of those parts of the aircraft - but this isn't anywhere near as strong as engine exchaust (Why am I being so pedantic about it? The nitty-gritty makes a difference when trying to model missile seekers and countermeasures, and it should dictate your evasive actions - but this is mostly n/a DCS for now). I've even seen FPA-based missiles go for the exchaust on 3/9 aproaches, but you can obviously make them smarter than that.

 

 

 

 

 

As long as your enemy isn't using CCD/FPA type seekers, it should work quite well in conjunction with flares.

[hassata]

Awesome vid-thanks for posting.

[dusel]

TrackIR. Without it the whole conversation of spotting SAM launches / AAA is exponentially more difficult.

 

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Hey thanks so much arteedecco great post. as you suggest I already startet practising on "out in the weeds" this missions allows it to train flying on low altitudes. I made some progress in fighting those long ranged SAM threats I was able to launch a few Mavericks without getting shot down...

 

However, now that I know using the eyes is a much bigger part that I thaught of i need to adjust the controls on the G940 I'm using, I need a way to use the "free look" on a coolie hat or so otherwise i need to switch to the mouse and hit ALT+C all the time... (something real pilots do not have to mess around ;))