Dividing Seconds by Sixty

mooshim · July 16, 2011

I'm this close to getting entering L/L coords into the CDU.

After weeks of putting it off... I promised myself I'd tackle it finally.

I get the call from Matt (in Smerch Hunt) to attack a contact at

N43 12 282 & E043 55.080

I alt+TAB out. I look up on Google for the 282 figure divided by 60--because I had a slew of extremely hot math teachers in middle school and ...it was just too much for me.

I didn't have a prayer of learning anything.) :cry:

28.2 / 60 = 0.47 gives me three digits--that I don't have to round up and I'm fine so I enter:

"N4312470" for Lat.

and

8 / 60 = 0.133333333 leads me to

"E04355133" for Long.

Am I way off or am I on the right track?

Many thanks.

P.S.

I'm following Snoopy's "creating a new flight plan" pdf (which is extremely useful and enlightening--but has a mysterious result on page 5 of dividing 20.5 by 60 =3.146 which he rounds up to 342 ??:huh:??-- But I'd defer to anyone's calculations over mine.

Anyway... I would really appreciate any help or verification as to whether I'm on the right track.

Many thanks.

P.P.S.

Is there a quick rule of thumb of dividing 3 digit numbers by sixty?

Cheers,

Moosh

Speed · July 16, 2011

I'm this close to getting entering L/L coords into the CDU.

After weeks of putting it off... I promised myself I'd tackle it finally.

I get the call from Matt (in Smerch Hunt) to attack a contact at

N43 12 282 & E043 55.080

I alt+TAB out. I look up on Google for the 282 figure divided by 60--because I had a slew of extremely hot math teachers in middle school and ...it was just too much for me.

I didn't have a prayer of learning anything.) :cry:

28.2 / 60 = 0.47 gives me three digits--that I don't have to round up and I'm fine so I enter:

"N4312470" for Lat.

and

8 / 60 = 0.133333333 leads me to

"E04355133" for Long.

Am I way off or am I on the right track?

Many thanks.
P.S.

I'm following Snoopy's "creating a new flight plan" pdf (which is extremely useful and enlightening--but has a mysterious result on page 5 of dividing 20.5 by 60 =3.146 which he rounds up to 342 ??:huh:??-- But I'd defer to anyone's calculations over mine.

Anyway... I would really appreciate any help or verification as to whether I'm on the right track.

Many thanks.

P.P.S.
Is there a quick rule of thumb of dividing 3 digit numbers by sixty?

Cheers,

Moosh

Sorry moosh, that's not correct.

You only divide the last coordinate set by 60 when you are actually given coordinates in degrees, minutes, and seconds.

You were given coordinates in degrees and minutes this time. This is coordinates in degrees, minutes, seconds:

42 40' 32"N

039 08' 12"E

This is that same coordinate in degrees and minutes, with minutes rounded to the nearest thousandth:

42 40.533'N

039 08.200'E

A single quote/apostrophe ( ' ) means minutes. The coordinate given before that is minutes. A double quote ( " ) means seconds. The coordinate given before that is seconds.

Never insert a decimal point if there is not one given. If you are doing so, it means you are doing it wrong. 282 is not equal to 28.2!

It's a lot like if you're measuring distance or height with feet and inches.

5' 11" == "Five feet, eleven inches"

5' 11" = 5' + (11/12)' = 5.917'

5' 11" = 5.917'

("Five feet, eleven inches is equal to five point nine one seven feet")

Edited July 16, 2011 by Speed

Alexrey · July 16, 2011

Apologies if this is a stupid question, but what exactly are you trying to do by dividing L/L co-ordinates by 60? I presume that you received those co-ords from the JTAC 9-line message? I haven't played around with entering L/L co-ords for a new waypoint too much, but I have tried it once or twice and just entering in the L/L co-ords into their required fields in the CDU waypoint page gave me the correct location of targets and I had no need to divide anything by 60.

Speed · July 16, 2011

If someone gives you exactly N43 12 282 / E043 55.080 then good luck figuring out if he means. That is a mess and doesn't mean anything. Make sure you read it exactly with all ' . ° carefully.

Yea, but Slacker, given the confusion people are having over this, I would assume that the typo was mooshim's typo and not the mission maker's. People seem to be getting very confused over what apostrophes/single quotes, double apostrophes/quotes, decimal points, and spaces mean in coordinates.

Oh and the degrees symbol can be omitted.. it's pretty clear that the first number has to be degrees. Though I suppose one could give coordinates in minutes only, seconds only, or even a combination of minutes and seconds... but it would be highly retarded to do so. I've seen some rather unusual coordinate formats, however. Usually, when someone falls for the "buy and name a star" scam, and they come onto one of the astronomy forums I frequent and ask "Where is the star I bought?", the "company" that scammed them will have given them celestial coordinates in as confusing a manner as possible... :no_sad:

Edited July 16, 2011 by Speed

mooshim · July 17, 2011

Really really helpful.

I'm so close I can taste it.... I'll get into that Smerch Hunt mission and verify the coordinates given.

Thanks again

mooshim · July 17, 2011

One Note for those trying to get their heads around this:

Paulkrii's excellent little PDF "Creating a Flight Plan" offers the following example on page 5

Lat. Coordinates 42 40' 20.5"

His division indicates 20.5/60 = 0.3146 which is then to be rounded up to 342

So he tells the reader to enter "4240342"

--I believe there's a typo that may throw some readers off.

Perhaps the result of the seconds division --0.3146

needs to be changed to the following result:0.3416.

(In addition, simply entering the figure didn't work for me. Rather, "N4240342" seems to work.)

Again, I really appreciate the hand-holding in this process.

Cheers,

Moosh

mooshim · July 17, 2011

the "company" that scammed them will have given them celestial coordinates in as confusing a manner as possible... :no_sad:

Remind me never to buy one of those stars. LOL~!

Okay, here is a screenie from Smerch Hunt.

N43 12.282 E043 55.080

I don't trust my math so I refer to a calculator:

(282 / 60 = 4.7)

(80 / 60 = 1.33333333)

These coords ought to give me N431247 & E0435513

Yes?

THX

----*edit*----

YES! SUCCESS!!!! FINALLY---after months...

THANKS for the help

Cheers!

P.S.

For those new to this who are intimidated by the details... If I can do this...anyone with a pulse can.

Edited July 17, 2011 by mooshim

mooshim · July 17, 2011

Nooo, don't divide! There's no work to do. N43 12.282' E043 55.080' is just what the A-10 wants. Only if it is 12'17'' would you convert to 12.828'.

LOL...

That would explain that I had to fish around a bit with the TGP to find the target exactly.:doh:

--Okay... I'm officially retarded. as per Snoopy's (Paulkrii's) PDF "CDU does not use seconds so you need to divide...by sixty"

first four digits DD/MM I know I don't touch. My assumption was that any following (/sss) figure would necessarily need a division by sixty. --Apparently, this is where I'm wrong. :huh:

What may clear this up for me is: what characteristic (limit?) of the provided /ss coordinates would distinguish it as a figure that does not need the division by sixty?

Many thanks for your patience. Perhaps you would understand why my Math teachers gave up on me.

Cheers

Moosh.

PS

For example this is another set of coords from Smerch Hunt.

Is there any indication from the last figures that would tell me whether to do the division?

THANKS~!!!:)

Edited July 17, 2011 by mooshim

mooshim · July 17, 2011

AI JTAC always gives MSG coordinate in that format DD MM.MMM so it's nice always.
!

+1 rep for the help

Alexrey · July 17, 2011

You can also roughly see what the decimal value has to be if they give you the co-ords in degrees-minutes-seconds and (I haven't tested this yet) making a rough estimate for the seconds part should get you fairly close to the target of interest.

For example:

10'' = 10/60 = 1/6 = 0.167

20'' = 20/60 = 2/6 = 1/3 = 0.333

30'' = 30/60 = 3/6 = 1/2 = .500

40'' = 40/60 = 4/6 = 2/3 = 0.667

50'' = 50/60 = 5/6 = 0.833

Having those simple references memorized you could then easily know what to enter into the CDU instead of running to the calculator, which would save a lot of crucial time.

Speed · July 17, 2011

Mooshim...

I'll say it again to make it clear:

' means minutes. The number before the ' mark is the minutes

" means seconds. The number before the " mark is seconds

. is a decimal point. the number directly before it (left-to-right) is the ones place. The number directly after it is the tenths place. I know you know how that works. Never insert or delete a decimal point if there isn't or is one.

A space is used to separate numbers in different units!

The CDU must have numbers in degrees/minutes format, with three numbers after the decimal point. If it helps you, you can actually enter the decimal point into the CDU! I do!

So anyway, how does one convert this coordinate?:

42 16.879'N

039 54.921'E

NO CONVERSION IS NECESSARY! It's in the format the CDU expects: degrees and minutes, with the minutes rounded to the nearest thousandth.

What about this one?

44 19' 55.4"N

041 55' 13.0"E

Notice that with the seconds mark (") being after the last number, it means the last number is in seconds and we have to convert.

So:

Lattitude:

44 degrees + 19 minutes + 55.4 seconds = 44 degrees + 19 minutes + 55.4/60 minutes

55.4/60 = 0.923, so:

= 44 degrees + 19 minutes + 0.923 minutes

= 44 19.923'

Longitude:

41 degrees + 55 minutes + 13.0 seconds = 41 degrees + 55 minutes + 13.0/60 minutes

13.0/60 = 0.217, so:

= 41 degrees + 55 minutes + 0.217 minutes

= 41 55.217'

So the coordinate is:

44 19.923'N

041 55.217'E

Note that I am OMITTING the degrees symbol. It's obvious it should be there, and seeing as it's a tough character to reach on the character map, it's easiest to just skip it.

One final example:

37 04'N

114 42'W

To convert that one for CDU entry, you need to of course, add the zeros:

37 04.000' N

114 42.000' W

As the CDU always needs the three digits after the decimal point. Again, you can actually enter the decimal point into the CDU if helps.

mooshim · July 17, 2011

Mooshim...

I'll say it again to make it clear:

' means minutes. The number before the ' mark is the minutes

" means seconds. The number before the " mark is seconds

. is a decimal point. the number directly before it (left-to-right) is the ones place. The number directly after it is the tenths place. I know you know how that works. Never insert or delete a decimal point if there isn't or is one.

A space is used to separate numbers in different units!

The CDU must have numbers in degrees/minutes format, with three numbers after the decimal point. If it helps you, you can actually enter the decimal point into the CDU! I do!

So anyway, how does one convert this coordinate?:

42 16.879'N
039 54.921'E

NO CONVERSION IS NECESSARY! It's in the format the CDU expects: degrees and minutes, with the minutes rounded to the nearest thousandth.

What about this one?

44 19' 55.4"N
041 55' 13.0"E

Notice that with the seconds mark (") being after the last number, it means the last number is in seconds and we have to convert.

So:
Lattitude:
44 degrees + 19 minutes + 55.4 seconds = 44 degrees + 19 minutes + 55.4/60 minutes

55.4/60 = 0.923, so:

= 44 degrees + 19 minutes + 0.923 minutes

= 44 19.923'

Longitude:
41 degrees + 55 minutes + 13.0 seconds = 41 degrees + 55 minutes + 13.0/60 minutes

13.0/60 = 0.217, so:

= 41 degrees + 55 minutes + 0.217 minutes

= 41 55.217'

So the coordinate is:

44 19.923'N

041 55.217'E

Note that I am OMITTING the degrees symbol. It's obvious it should be there, and seeing as it's a tough character to reach on the character map, it's easiest to just skip it.

One final example:

37 04'N
114 42'W

To convert that one for CDU entry, you need to of course, add the zeros:

37 04.000' N
114 42.000' W

As the CDU always needs the three digits after the decimal point. Again, you can actually enter the decimal point into the CDU if helps.

Amazing...

Thanks.

Teriander · July 17, 2011

Man, that's deep. I need to smoke a bowl to process all this info.

mooshim · July 17, 2011

Man, that's deep. I need to smoke a bowl...

...of cereal (in accordance with the rules of this forum :) )

(careful Teriander:smilewink: )

Alexrey · July 17, 2011

It's actually very straightforward. Don't let the long post scare you, its just to show you what is going on step-by-step. All we're doing is converting a L/L degrees-minutes-seconds coordinate format into a L/L degrees-minutes format so that we can enter it into the CDU correctly (because the CDU only takes its Latitude/Longitude coordinates in degrees-minutes format and not the standard degrees-minutes-seconds format that we are used to). It's basic maths.

hreich · April 17, 2013

Is there any excell table ready for use ?

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