Cannot make TOT WPs work in ME

[Bahger]

I've never managed to make this work. Perhaps it only works if you plot TOTs for each WP before you create the next?

 

Anyway, I have two flights that I want to 'synchronise' by having them both hit WP 2 at the same time, even though one flight will have to fly faster (or the other one fly slower) because they cannot take off simultaneously from the same single-runway airfield.

 

Complicating matters is the fact that there are really four flights in this scenario, as I have it set so that any client flight not chosen by the player will spawn as an AI flight with identical routes, tasking, etc. Complicating matters further is the fact that the mission requires a cold start for both client and AI flights.

 

I do not understand why, every time I try and convert my flightplan without locked WP TOT times to one with at least one locked time, I get all sorts of red numbers, impossible airspeeds and error messages.

 

If I cannot make this work, I can brief the player not to run too far ahead of the AI flight behind him, but I would rather create continuously computed TOTs that show up in his HUD.

 

I don't want to start over just to get TOT WPs to work but I wonder what I'm doing wrong. I could never master this in the Falcon 4 AF ME either, alas.

[Speed]

Last I checked, the only way to create synchronized TOTs for clients was to make them already started at mission start, and have all clients already in the pit. You see, the TOT counter for clients is relative to client start- CDU start specifically, I think (I'm not completely certain on that what exact event determines waypoint timing). For example, if in the mission editor, the TOT for a waypoint is 1800 seconds after mission start, then when you get in the pit, and finally get your CDU booted up, then the TOT for that waypoint will be 1800 seconds after that point.

 

Really sucks for coordinated strikes. I discovered this drawback when I had a mission where the players needed to arrive at the target area just moments after cruise missiles blasted away the air defenses, which happened at a very specific time in the mission.

 

That said, you could "fake" it with script output messages to clients- but that would be pretty lame. Instead of looking at the HUD for their desired speed and TOS, they look at the trigger text box... yea, lame.

 

Anyone know if ED has made any improvements in this department yet? If not, I think they will have to for a fast mover module. A-10s generally are not part of big packages that have to rally or coordinate with other flights by arriving over specific waypoints at specific times, but if you are simulating a fast mover, which very frequently is a part of a multiflight package, TOS must behave correctly.

Edited March 12, 2013 by Speed

[Grimes]

I'd have to see the mission file to see whats wrong with it. However it is likely that the timing for the late activated groups are whats off. Basically once you check "late activation" all TOT are based on the actual start time of a group. For example there are two groups with identical waypoints, however one is set to late activation. The original groups TOT is 1230 with a start time of 1200. The late activated groups TOT is activation time + 30 minutes. So if have it spawn at 1210 it will arrive at the WP at 1240.

[Bahger]

Thanks for such a definitive response, Speed. The only sim I've ever got it to work properly in was Tornado (of blessed memory) in which you could time TOTs so precisely in the ME that SEAD, CAS and runway interdiction could be synched to the second. it was an important part of that sim, as it is in real life, for the player to hit his TOTs so that he could feel that he was participating in a intricately fragged mission. This dimension has never been present in DCS and, as you say, if they cannot execute it properly for fighter ops in a fast-mover study sim, the feature will be conspicuous by its absence.

 

Grimes, I took a look at my mission to see if I could implement TOT by compensating for delayed activation times. The problem is that the sim does not seem able to consider either late activation times nor cold startup/ taxi times when calculating airspeed. I have tried synchronising my two pairs of flights, SPRINGFIELD & ENFIELD and SPRINGFIELD AI & ENFIELD AI, to arrive at WP 1 at 08:48. Mission start time is 08:30. The AI flights are delayed 10 minutes to make up for the difference between how fast they cold-start vs. how long it takes the average player. With start times locked and ETA at WP1 set at 08:48 for each flight, human and AI, the problem is that the sim calculates an unflyable airspeed en route to WP1 because it does not take into account the start up and taxi. At least, this is my theory. it is also possible that the sim cannot compensate for the minute or so of delay in each flight gettting off the same runway and re-joining, so it's possible that the synchronisation could only work, if it can work at all, over a longer time and distance from mission start.

 

I have attached the mission in case you are curious or reckon you can fix it without breaking a sweat. Don't go to undue trouble. Before I experiment with trying to synch the TOT at a more distant WP, I'd love to know (i) if there is indeed a TOT caret in the HUD to guide the DCS A-10C pilot to the right airspeed for the correct, calculated, TOT and (ii) whether it's even possible to achieve any of this. I'm not sure.

 

It's not a mission-breaker. As Speed suggests, I can simply remind the player via a text output message, of his fragged time of takeoff but that begs another question; how can TOT calculations from takeoff possibly be made without bearing in mind target altitude and airspeed in a climb? If I climb out to 6000ft at 182kts IAS and then lower the nose to climb to 12,000ft at 200kts IAS, how can the AI possibly fly the same profile and therefore get to the WP at the same time (with small additions or reductions in airspeed to compensate for an earlier/later departure time from tha last WP?

 

Apologies for the large file, there are custom sound files embedded in the .miz.

Patrol by Force 23_TOT.miz

[Grimes]

For starters the time and speed locks that turn red appears to be sensitive to entering in numbers, the status of the last waypoint checked, and placing the WP at an invalid location based on the "lock". For instance if either value is in red and you click on another unit that has a valid ETA, it will still appear as red until you modify the value by changing it in the entry box. The AI flights are a little screwed up in that you had the actual TOT rather than the relative TOT.

 

Mission Start TOT appears as: 08:48:0/186

Late Activation TOT appears as: 0:18:0/0

 

The problem is that if you activated the AI group 10 minutes after the start of the mission, the AI's actual TOT would be delayed by 10 minutes, thus it would be 08:58:0/186. All TOT used for late activations are based on the groups relative TOT between each waypoint.

 

Perhaps you could utilize hack time to help sync up the player with the AI flight. Or alternatively have the AI take off and orbit until a certain time at which point they will head to the TOT WP to meet up with the player.

[TC]

This dimension has never been present in DCS and, as you say, if they cannot execute it properly for fighter ops in a fast-mover study sim, the feature will be conspicuous by its absence.

Even without being part of big packages there are plenty of occasions when an A-10 pilot/ flight has to sync up with other assets (Refuelers, Range Controller, JTAC), so having a working TOT is essential.

Unlike F4 however ED has yet to get this working.

 

As a player you can adjust your TOT with the CDU and make up for the "lost" time at mission start. Syncing up with the AI will only work by having everyone in a holding pattern until after the slowest/ last to takeoff flight has arrived.

 

 

Before I experiment with trying to synch the TOT at a more distant WP, I'd love to know (i) if there is indeed a TOT caret in the HUD to guide the DCS A-10C pilot to the right airspeed for the correct, calculated, TOT and (ii) whether it's even possible to achieve any of this. I'm not sure.

You´ll have the required speed below your actual speed and right and low in the HUD the ammount of seconds that you are early/ late.

 

how can TOT calculations from takeoff possibly be made without bearing in mind target altitude and airspeed in a climb? If I climb out to 6000ft at 182kts IAS and then lower the nose to climb to 12,000ft at 200kts IAS, how can the AI possibly fly the same profile and therefore get to the WP at the same time (with small additions or reductions in airspeed to compensate for an earlier/later departure time from tha last WP?

That you´d do in mission planning, calculating with a climb angle and speed that you can manage and adjust a little up or down as needed/ dictated by your TOT. The AI tries to reach the assigned altitude at the end of the leg, pretty much ignoring TOT and speed so the only way to be sure what profile he is flying is to chase plane him and check for the times manually.

Looking at your mission however makes me think you´ll face more problems with the AI flights (attacking when they aren´t supposed to, going after the wrong target, etc), so my advice would be to do MP first and maybe a SP later.

 

Cheers

TC

[Bahger]

Thanks for your response, gents.

 

Grimes, you are right, rather than mess with a TOT feature that does not really work, using hack time makes sense, as does having the client flight orbit at the WP so that the AI can catch up. There's a some time-pressure on the player in this mission so, on balance, staggering the flights and having them arrive at their IPs about three minutes apart is better than delaying one flight so that the other can catch up. I never orchestrate mission events in reaction to the client flights arriving in the AO, it's a "cheat", so in my missions, the player has to be punctual!

 

By far the best solution tio this would be an AI time hack feature in the ME. It would be great to have both a human and an AI flight start the hack and input it into the CDU when short of the runway threshold and on the runway ready to roll.

 

TC, what you say makes a lot of sense. I'd be happy to battle with the complexities of the CDU but not with a sim TOT feature that is not really functional and requires enormous jury-rigging. My climbout profile is always the same, 182kts to 2000ft, flaps up, then lower the nose for a 200kt climb at full power. It's an efficient profile but I cannot expect the AI to fly it. Impossible to get accurate TOT airspeed data without inputting a climb profile, I'd think, especially over a relatively short distance.

 

I'm proud to say that after a lot of work, I've disciplined the AI flights in my mission to go after the right targets 90% of the time. I had to play with all sorts of combinations of enroute commands, primary target designations, target prioritization and search in zone orders. I've got them reined in enough now that, if you choose either flight as client, you'll feel that you are working with the AI flight rather than around it. In this respect, it's my most ambitious mission. I have high hopes for it and am just happy that the TOT issue would have been icing on the cake and not the cake itself.

Edited March 13, 2013 by Bahger