RUAF vs Big 6 EUAF

[blackadam]

Russia Air Force vs Big 6 EU Air Force (France, UK, German, Italy, Spain, Sweden).

 

I think with the number of Su-27P/SM/SM3/30SM/35S in Russia (270 aircraft in WorldAirForces2013) + Sukhoi quality is also likely to beat Big 6 EUAF, 4 in 6 EUAF powers based on backbone EF-2k with 214 aircraft (as WorldAirForces2013) then with 261 Tornado IDS (version attack aircraft similar A-10, F-15E, F-111 or Su-24, Su-25, JH-7. A2A only limited capacity, and are being replaced by EF2kT3 also by WAF2013, the ADV for purposes A2A was not provided), in the history of the Iraqi MiG-29B Iraq had shot down Tornado IDS (Tornado GR1), enough to show the ability of A2A and it is pretty poor machine allied aircraft shot down many of the first Gulf War. That's not to mention the huge number MiG-29S/29SMT/31BM.

 

Next 135 aircraft Mirage 2000C/5 and Rafale B/C France's air force. Jas-39 155 aircraft sweden's air force, I think this will be a force against the Russian Air Force match

 

Advantages of Russian aircraft, attack large Russia Air Force vs Big 6 EU Air Force (France, UK, German, Italy, Spain, Sweden).

 

I think with the number of Su-27SM2/30SM/35S in Russia (270 aircraft in WorldAirForces2013) + Sukhoi quality is also likely to beat Big 6 EUAF, 4 in 6 EUAF powers based on backbone EF-2k with 214 aircraft (as WorldAirForces2013) then with 261 Tornado IDS (version attack aircraft similar A-10, F-15E, F-111 or Su-24, Su-25, JH-7. A2A only limited capacity, and are being replaced by EF2kT3 also by WAF2013, the ADV for purposes A2A was not provided), in the history of the Iraqi MiG-29B Iraq had shot down Tornado IDS (Tornado GR1), enough to show the ability of A2A and it is pretty poor machine allied aircraft shot down many of the first Gulf War. That's not to mention the huge number MiG-29S-9-13/29SMT/31BM.

 

Next 135 aircraft Mirage 2000C/5 and Rafale B/C France's air force. Jas-39 155 aircraft sweden's air force, I think this will be a force against the Russian Air Force match

 

Advantages of Russian aircraft, large combat raidus, long range-radar and long range-missile equipped remarkable, powerful weapons payload, high maneuverability in dogfight, mini-AWACS capability. But very easy to be detected from a distance by AWACS. However Sukhoi many sensors, ECM jamming pod, IRST, maws. Warning early detection and using countermeasures

 

The strength of the Big 6 AF, all aircraft of low RCS, a few aircraft equipped with AESA radar advantage in BVR. But its heavy dependence on AWACS. Advanced electronic systems in dogfight, eg Topsight will fill holes as compared with the maneuverability Sukhoi.

 

AWACS: E-3, A-50 , long range-radar and long range-missile equipped remarkable, powerful weapons payload, high maneuverability in dogfight, mini-AWACS capability. But very easy to be detected from a distance by AWACS. However Sukhoi many sensors, ECM jamming pod, IRST, maws. Warning early detection and using countermeasures

 

The strength of the Big 6 AF, all aircraft of low RCS, a few aircraft equipped with AESA radar advantage in BVR. But its heavy dependence on AWACS. Advanced electronic systems in dogfight, eg Topsight will fill holes as compared with the maneuverability Sukhoi.

 

AWACS: E-3, A-50

Edited September 15, 2013 by blackadam

[Flagrum]

Ok.

[dumgrunt]

not really sure what red herring you are trying to catch here, but the VVS record speaks for itself; not a maximum effort granted but they didnt gain true air superiority against a military with less than a dozen su-25's and a couple of Buk batteries in the 5 day war. not really sure how well they would do against a combined organisation who have been exercising and deploying together for the last 60 years, plus have two of the most recent combat air frame designs currently in service and operationally tested. Russian IAD is it only real trump, but you make no mention of that.

[Kaktus29]

i don't think its so easy as OP described it.. first of all the "air war" wouldn't be fought in the air..most of the engagements would be tactical in nature,airbases would be hit with tactical cruise missiles and short ballistic missiles with conventional warheads.. this would put out all the f-16,mig-29,grippens out cuz of short range.. airbases further away would still be targeted with cruise missiles but damage would be less obvious and air-strips more easily repairable..

 

even then, i wouldn't expect a major AIR WAR cuz of AD present in both blocks..

 

A successful SEAD,DEAD missions are prepared 2 months in advance, with numerous spying such as with PLANES not satellites ..to do this in time of 100% cruise missile denying airbases to operate at 100% efficiency makes the whole air war much less active than thought..

 

in such condition a ground war would begin and would be crucial in deciding the war effort.. this is all theoretical of course, in real ground war tactical nuke arty rounds would fly of which Russia has the majority of them, so ground war would be won by Russia easily, but then west would reply with strategic nukes and so on and on until we are all reduced to rubble..

[RIPTIDE]

not really sure what red herring you are trying to catch here, but the VVS record speaks for itself; not a maximum effort granted but they didnt gain true air superiority against a military with less than a dozen su-25's and a couple of Buk batteries in the 5 day war. not really sure how well they would do against a combined organisation who have been exercising and deploying together for the last 60 years, plus have two of the most recent combat air frame designs currently in service and operationally tested. Russian IAD is it only real trump, but you make no mention of that.

Then again they had 6 hours notice. :)

[RIPTIDE]

-mute-

In WW3 there are no airbases after 48 hours.

 

Game over for every advanced platform that requires one. :)

[Pilotasso]

Greece has over 300 Combat aircraft, more than Sweden. If we count with Turkey, then they have another 350 with more on order making them the 2nd largest NATO airforce.

 

its not really a fair comparison with RuAF VS several countries understanding the international context that now the Russians find themselves in.

 

Russia Air Force vs Big 6 EU Air Force (France, UK, German, Italy, Spain, Sweden).

 

I think with the number of Su-27P/SM/SM3/30SM/35S in Russia (270 aircraft in WorldAirForces2013) + Sukhoi quality is also likely to beat Big 6 EUAF, 4 in 6 EUAF powers based on backbone EF-2k with 214 aircraft (as WorldAirForces2013)

 

Of those 270 aircraft, around 220 are soviet era examples... how does that compare with EU? :huh:

Edited September 15, 2013 by Pilotasso

[Pilotasso]

In WW3 there are no airbases after 48 hours.

 

Game over for every advanced platform that requires one. :)

 

I don't think it is realistic to think all airstrips and usable roads would be wiped out, and all aircraft grounded in the cold war and even less now. Maybe in west Germany (then) and south of UK (where the harrier was supposed to operate) because we are talking about smaller areas of Europe but not Europe as a whole. There are simply too many infra structures to use expensive cruise missiles at, attack aircraft unlikely to arrive in enough numbers to do the job anyway. I think this scenario was overly pessimistic clearly overestimating strike capabilities warsaw pact had.

 

Unless they used nukes but then the airfields would be the least of the worries.

Edited September 15, 2013 by Pilotasso

[RIPTIDE]

I don't think it is realistic to think all airstrips and usable roads would be wiped out, and all aircraft grounded in the cold war and even less now. Maybe in west Germany (then) and south of UK (where the harrier was supposed to operate) because we are talking about smaller areas of Europe but not Europe as a whole. There are simply too many infra structures to use expensive cruise missiles at, attack aircraft unlikely to arrive in enough numbers to do the job anyway. I think this scenario was overly pessimistic clearly overestimating strike capabilities warsaw pact had.

 

Unless they used nukes but then the airfields would be the least of the worries.

Maybe I should repost what I wrote:

 

In WW3 there are no airbases after 48 hours.

 

Game over for every advanced platform that requires one.

[Pilotasso]

You could still operate advanced types from roads, The Russians would have to choose what airfields to strike because they couldn't take them all out unless they used Nukes.

 

If they used bombers a lot, and a mean ALOT of them would be shot down in the process.

[RIPTIDE]

You could still operate advanced types from roads, The Russians would have to choose what airfields to strike because they couldn't take them all out unless they used Nukes.

 

If they used bombers a lot, and a mean ALOT of them would be shot down in the process.

Now you get it. :)

 

Everyone's going to throw around nukes. After the silos, the Airbases are the targets. We're not purely talking about the concrete runways. We're talking about all the Aeroinfrastructure, weapons stockpiles, human resources etc that might have a hope of keeping an advanced airforce in operation in some form of insularity.

 

They're all gone at that stage. Ironically it's the silos and the airbases that would incur the largest hits and the resultant lethal radiation, not the cities.... at least not within the first exchanges. So the likes of Zhukovsky, Engels, Ramstein etc all gone. And very importantly, their men. :cry:

[FeoFUN]

Sukhoi quality

What about weapons quality? :rolleyes:

 

That's not to mention the huge number MiG-29S-9-13/29SMT/31BM.

Huge numbers?! There is a dozen of MIG-31BM and slightly two than two dozens of the MIG-29SMT.

 

But very easy to be detected from a distance by AWACS.

How is that - very easy?

 

The strength of the Big 6 AF, all aircraft of low RCS,

Stealth is a very important factor, but to reduce the range of detection by 2 times - you should reduce RCS by 16 times. So, it's not a case of EU fighters since they don't have a weapon bays.

 

a few aircraft equipped with AESA radar advantage in BVR.

You're overestimating AESA significance in BVR.

The APG-79 AESA radar demonstrated marginal

improvements since the previous FOT&E period and provides

improved performance relative to the legacy APG-73

radar. However, operational testing does not demonstrate a

statistically significant difference in mission accomplishment

between F/A-18E/F aircraft equipped with AESA and those

equipped with the legacy radar.

http://www.dote.osd.mil/pub/reports/FY2012/pdf/navy/2012fa18ef.pdf

 

But its heavy dependence on AWACS.

How is that? Why?

 

Advanced electronic systems in dogfight, eg Topsight will fill holes as compared with the maneuverability Sukhoi.

To talk about maneuverability - you should have something like this.

Edited September 15, 2013 by FeoFUN

[NOLA]

Huge numbers?! There is a dozen of MIG-31BM..

 

By far more.

[Pilotasso]

Ruaf ordered 60, not that large of a number.

[NOLA]

Ruaf ordered 60, not that large of a number.

 

60>12 FYI.

 

60 so far doesn't mean 60 in total.

[Pilotasso]

They ordered them, but didn't get them yet ;)

[NOLA]

They ordered them, but didn't get them yet ;)

 

Doesn't change the fact that they have, right now, over 40 of them. So they are close. The big question is engine and canopy production.

 

PS: Not to mention the 60 number is debatable... it could be 90...

[FeoFUN]

Doesn't change the fact that they have, right now, over 40 of them. So they are close. The big question is engine and canopy production.

 

PS: Not to mention the 60 number is debatable... it could be 90...

40?! Where did you get this number??? Source, please. IIRC, first production lot that contained ten of them have been delivered in the 2012 and another 6-8 is planned to be upgraded and delivered this year.

 

Also, 60 is a planned number until 2020. So - there is a DOZEN of MIG-31BM in the RuAF ATM, at best.

Edited September 16, 2013 by FeoFUN

[NOLA]

40?! Where did you get this number??? Source, please. IIRC, first production lot that contained ten of them have been delivered in the 2012 and another 6-8 is planned to be upgraded and delivered this year.

 

Also, 60 is a planned number until 2020. So - there is a DOZEN of MIG-31BM in the RuAF ATM, at best.

 

You have made fool out of yourself once, and i see you are determent to do it second time.

 

I keep list of MiG-31BM's. For a frame to be added to the list, it needs to be documented with atleast one picture. I have over 340 pictures of BM's alone.

 

Currently i have 25 blue borted MiG-31BM's and 21 red. So total of 46, and that is excluding one i know b/n of but don't have photo evidence for yet. Of out 2 or possibly 3 are MiG owned prototypes/development frames. No, i am not planning to share the list with you for several reasons. You are free to pick a number and a color and i will see if i have it. :)

 

One frame, blue b/n 14 is badly documented, having only this picture that is not showing the bort number:

 

http://russianplanes.net/id118652

 

I will repeat, every single one of those i have on the list are documented by atleast one picture. I believe b/n 14 is the only one i don't have clear picture of (aka showing b/n).

 

So you are not only wrong, you are wrong by almost 4 fold. Not to mention i am sure there are some frames that are around that i simply have not documented.

 

By simply going through here you will easily get over 12 MiG-31BM's:

 

http://russianplanes.net/st/Mikoyan-Gurevich/MiG-31BM

 

These two pictures shows half of your claimed number alone. And that is only one base:

 

 

 

Then there are western spotter sites like airliners etc. Then there are Russian forums...

 

Secondly, you must have lived under a rock if you think deliveries of BM's started only last year. That program has been around for a while. The contract is til 2018 if my memory doesn't fail me, and not til 2020. And as said there is some questions regarding the total and contracted number.

 

Same way there is not an order for 92 Su-34's, but 124... For now.

Edited September 16, 2013 by NOLA

[FeoFUN]

I will repeat, every single one of those i have on the list are documented by atleast one picture. I believe b/n 14 is the only one i don't have clear picture of (aka showing b/n).

Then just show us this list and all these tactical numbers. :music_whistling: All what i see ATM - is your insults caused by your butthurt and two photos of the same "less than a dozen" group of 31BM at Savasleika air base.

 

If i'm really mistaken about the numbers - i'll change my POV.

[Rangi]

in the history of the Iraqi MiG-29B Iraq had shot down Tornado IDS (Tornado GR1), enough to show the ability of A2A and it is pretty poor machine allied aircraft shot down many of the first Gulf War.

 

Any sources for this claim?

[NOLA]

Then just show us this list and all these tactical numbers. :music_whistling: All what i see ATM - is your insults caused by your butthurt and two photos of the same "less than a dozen" group of 31BM at Savasleika air base.

 

If i'm really mistaken about the numbers - i'll change my POV.

 

As said, i won't give you the list for several reasons. One of which i have no interest of fueling your laziness. I gave you a link, you can easily create a list with over a dozen BM's. You think i have 340+ pictures of less than 12 frames? Well, continue to think so.

 

And facepalm, that is not Savasleika. Continue being stubborn, you are only digging a deeper hole.

[FeoFUN]

All what i still think is that you have nothing to prove your point about 40 BM.

[NOLA]

All what i still think is that you have nothing to prove your point about 40 BM.

 

Again, take a look at the link i gave you, stop being stubborn. I have evidence for 40+ BM's, and you have evidence for easily 12+ one click away in the link i gave you.

 

What is YOUR evidence for only 12 BM's huh? What happens if there is 13? :)

[EtherealN]

NOLA, if you want to claim evidence, show it.

 

If, for some reason, you cannot show it - then don't argue.

 

And people, drop the insults.