CMS programmes

[JayPee]

I find several contradictory opinions on which CMS programmes AUTO or SEMI AUTO mode uses. I've managed to round it down to two beliefs, one states it uses A B C D. The other says A B L.

 

Which is it?

Is the limited selection of automatically selected programmes an RL thing or just DCSW?

If I edit a programme to totally not match the conditions for which it is intended, will the A-10C select a programme outside the A B C D or A B L range or will it use the unfit programme? E.g., setting flares only for A and B.

[Flagrum]

I find several contradictory opinions on which CMS programmes AUTO or SEMI AUTO mode uses. I've managed to round it down to two beliefs, one states it uses A B C D. The other says A B L.

 

Which is it?

Is the limited selection of automatically selected programmes an RL thing or just DCSW?

If I edit a programme to totally not match the conditions for which it is intended, will the A-10C select a programme outside the A B C D or A B L range or will it use the unfit programme? E.g., setting flares only for A and B.

Afaik the automatically choosen programs are defined in DCS World\Mods\aircrafts\A-10C\Cockpit\Scripts\CMSP\device\CMSP_param.lua

 

Therefore I am pretty sure that only A, B and L are selected in AUTO mode - regardless of how they are actually defined.

 

If this is also the case in the real thing, I don't know. But I suspect that in reality the system might be a bit more flexible, though.

[JayPee]

I have opened the CMSP_param.lua and I noticed it says the first 3 programmes have a certain purpose as named in the section header. From D onwards the programmes are labeled under the section manual programmes up until L with no special marking for L itself or whatsoever. How do you infer from this bit of information that it uses A B L and nothing else? Because I don't quite see the logic in that... But maybe I'm missing the obvious?

Edited September 24, 2013 by JayPee

[Hot_LZ]

The CMS looks the same as in real life, but the way it's operated in DCS is totally made up.

[JayPee]

The CMS looks the same as in real life, but the way it's operated in DCS is totally made up.

Care to elaborate / provide references? Would appreciate it, not to undermine you, but just to learn more about it.

[Flagrum]

I have opened the CMSP_param.lua and I noticed it says the first 3 programmes have a certain purpose as named in the section header. From D onwards the programmes are labeled under the section manual programmes up until L with no special marking for L itself or whatsoever. How do you infer from this bit of information that it uses A B L and nothing else? Because I don't quite see the logic in that... But maybe I'm missing the obvious?

ChaffFlaresProgramsForRadars =
{
   --[b][color=Red]Program A[/color][/b]
   { DEF_PROG_A,
       { Kub_STR_9S91, Osa_9A33, ZSU_23_4_Shilka}
   },

   --[b][color=Red]Program B[/color][/b]
   { DEF_PROG_B,
       { S300PS_SR_5N66M, S300PS_TR_30N6, Buk_SR_9S18M1, Buk_LN_9A310M1, Tor_9A331, Tunguska_2S6, Roland_ADS, Patriot_STR_ANMPQ_53}
   },
   
   --[color=Red][b]Program L[/b][/color]
   { DEF_PROG_L,
       {S125_SR_P_19, S125_TR_SNR, Hawk_SR_ANMPQ_50, Hawk_TR_ANMPQ_46}
   },
}

That is the section I was referring to mainly. Does your's look differently? o.O

[JayPee]

You are correct, mine looks the same. This would suggest a pre-emt chaff programme for 'L' SAMs.

 

It would make sense since there is no way to detect incoming missile's IR signature (on the A-10C). So there are no given conditions for programmes C and D. Kinda weird to put so much space between B and L tho...

 

Waiting for HotLZ. Perhaps he has some further insight.

[Hot_LZ]

Care to elaborate / provide references? Would appreciate it, not to undermine you, but just to learn more about it.

 

I played around with one of those units. They're called EWMU's, and have a way more sophisticated menu structure. I don't know what and how settings can be made, but I do know it's not nearly as simplified as it is in the A10C.

Also, having the CMS popping chaff in auto mode makes absolutely no sense to me at all. You need to make specific maneuvers and pop chaff at specific moments for as far as I know, instead of leaving a long trail of chaff which makes it really easy for the enemy to track you.

[Hot_LZ]

JayPee, I'm not superbly familiar with the systems on the A10C, but doesn't it have M(A)WS? Missile Approach Warning System. I believe it does. And it detects the UV from missile launches

[JayPee]

MAWS would mean it detects plumes, even of IR missiles. This would/could/should make the CMS system auto select an appropriate anti IR programme.

 

I'm afraid we have to halt this discussion and live with the fact that the sim is programmed to use A, B, and L. Unless somebody else can prove otherwise.

 

Still, this begs the question why CMS systems (minus the ECM pod for reasons concerning classified info) are not accurately modeled.

[Hot_LZ]

Countermeasure systems are classified. You don't want to enemy to know how your self defence works, so that the enemy finds out the best way to defeat it, right?

I don't believe MAWS detects plumes, not sure, but it most certainly detects missile launches. Especially IR. Radar-guided missile launches can be detected by the fire control radar being activated and painting your aircraft.

[JayPee]

For those interested, a bit on the AN/ALE-47, the successor of the AN/ALE-40(v).

 

Important to know is that the AN/ALE-47 has a maximum storage of 6 programmes. I leave it to you to assume whether the earlier version (which is modeled in DCSW albeit simplified) has the same limitation or not. I could not find any more info on the AN/ALE-40 as it seems it is considered obsolete and replaced by the -47 in almost all situations.

 

Principles of operation

 

The countermeasure process involves

 

1. receiving data from threat sensors
   
2. prioritizing the threats and displaying key information
   
3. selecting the appropriate type, quantity and sequence in the release
   
4. scheduling the release
   
5. starting the release
   
6. telling the individual launchers to release devices
   

Against a simple heat-seeking missile, the appropriate response might be four flares, 0.1 seconds apart, released when the missile is within 1 mile. This pattern might be preprogrammed release "A" to the flare launcher

If, however, the threat were a two-stage missile with midcourse radar and final heat-seeking guidance, the more appropriate response might be:

 

• Immediately release an active radar jammer, attempting to trigger the "home on jam" radar guidance mode. This would be program "B"
  
• 2.3 seconds later, release three radar reflectors, 0.3 seconds apart, to give false targets to the radar seeker that was not confused by home on jam; this is program "C". Program C contains actions C1, C2, and C3: commands to radar reflector launch tubes
  
• In 10 seconds, release four flares, 0.5 seconds apart, to decoy the heat-seeker, simultaneously deploying the towed decoy, or program "D".
  
• 8 seconds later, turn on the heat source on the towed decoy and release one more flare, as program "E". T
  

For a missile assessed as radar only, the appropriate response might be program "B", followed by two executions of program "C".

Full article, FWIW: http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/ALE-47

 

Modes of Operation

 

The AN/ALE-47 is "Aircrew Selectable" and allows the crew to select any of three release modes: Fully Automatic, Semi Automatic & Manual Operation.

Fully Automatic: The dispenser system receives threat data from the aircraft's RWR sensor system, and then selects the appropriate response to the threat in terms of choices of 1) the type of expendable countermeasures to be employed, 2) the dispersal sequence and pattern, and then 3) when to dispense the selected expendable decoys. The AN/ALE-47 automatically downloads data to program active expendable decoys before the launch sequence.

Semi-Automatic: The dispenser system analyzes the threat data input, selects the best response and then provides a signal to the aircrew that the system is ready. The aircrew then initiates the release.

Manual Operation: The aircrew selects one of the six pre-programmed responses, in terms of quantities, sequences and types of expendables to be employed in order to produce the required decoy pattern to defeat the threat.

Full article, FWIW: http://www.symetrics.com/content/products/anale47/index.aspx

 

Also, from what I've read elsewhere, the A-10A suite 2 was the last to use the AN/ALE-40. The A-10C suite 3 uses the AN/ALE-47.

Edited September 25, 2013 by JayPee

[Eddie]

Yep. Defensive aids are much more complicated, and clever, than we see in our sims. Some aircraft can even give the pilot directions to perform the correct defensive manoeuvre at the optimum time.

 

Again, another area of DCS (and every other sim) where simplification actually gives far less capability than seen in reality.

[JayPee]

Just a general question, what are likely the main reasons for this? Classification of such subjects IRL or lack of interest/time/money on the developer's side to implement it accurately?

 

I'm guessing the first but I'm not sure.

[Eddie]

A bit of both really.

 

As with RADAR, ECM, and other things, while a lot of things do fall under the "classified" umbrella those things aren't neccesarily relevant to replicating the function of a system in a sim.

 

For example, what flares do, and how they do it is not at all classified. There are plently of scientific paper online to allow very detailed modelling of expendable countermeasures. The things that are protected are specifics such as how effective a given system is against a specific threat, or the exact method is employs to counter a given threat. We don't need to know either of those things to simulate it.

 

However, as was the case with A-10C, it may be the case that when an operator is providing information etc to help develop a product, they may also ask/require that some aspects are changed. Even if they are not really sensitive.

 

And of course development resources are a very big factor. If ED had the same resources as the like of EA we'd likely already have the electronic battlefield and more realistic countermeasures etc. There is also a case for some simplification. While people like me would happily see everything modelled as accuratly as possible, the majority may not be too keen on 20 odd layers of menus to play with just for the RWR or MWS.

[JayPee]

I see your point. Yet we're running a commercial copy of military training software. So one would assume the military version has it all properly modeled. I wonder why they didn't/couldn't just copy and mask those very few features that are absolutely not allowed to be shared with the public.

 

PS: Eddie I sent you a PM regarding something else. Did you perhaps miss it?

Edited September 25, 2013 by JayPee

[Eddie]

Even the DTS for the USANG didn't have any 'classified' stuff in it. But that goes back to the USAF not allowing ED to use the same implementation in the DCS product.

 

Yeah, I saw your PM, but didn't have time to reply at the time, and then forgot all about it. I'll send you a reply when I have chance to sit at my sim PC and give you a decent answer.

[Hot_LZ]

I see your point. Yet we're running a commercial copy of military training software. So one would assume the military version has it all properly modeled. I wonder why they didn't/couldn't just copy and mask those very few features that are absolutely not allowed to be shared with the public.

 

PS: Eddie I sent you a PM regarding something else. Did you perhaps miss it?

 

 

Simple. Because it's classified.

Like I said before, you don't want the enemy to know how you counter their weapons.