Is this how headtracking is meant to be?

[doveman]

For about a year I've been trying to get Freetrack/FTNoIR working with my homemade LED clip and PS3 Eye.

 

I've got it to the point where it picks up the LEDs OK but I've found it tends to lose them if the cam is on top of my monitor when I'm turning right or looking down at the panels especially (clip and cam are on my right) and it works a lot better with the cam underneath my monitor angled up (which is tricky as I have a clip designed to hold it on top of the monitor but underneath, the cable makes it hard to set it in any position other than flat, so I'll have to make some sort of desk mount for it).

 

I set the pitch offset to 25 to compensate, which seems to be enough to stop it pitching when I'm yawing. I was testing in FaceTrackNoIR as it's easy to disable the different axis in that and found that if I enabled the Z axis, that would output a lot when I'm yawing, so I'm not sure I can use more than Yaw and Pitch for now, although strangely with the same model settings in FreeTrack it doesn't seem to zoom when yawing (great as it is, that programs too buggy, with my cam at least, requiring me to faff about changing the camera settings every time, so I'll only be using FTNoIR for anything other than testing).

 

A worse problem I found though with both programs is that it feels very sluggish to follow my head, almost like pulling a piece of wood with a string on a lake, where the water acts to resist the movement and it also tends to float, so after I stop my head it continues to move a bit further, making it overshoot where I wanted to look.

 

Is there any way to get rid of these issues or is this the best it gets? As it is, it seems easier to use snapviews to look out of the L/R windows to check my surroundings, as I can do that in an instant with the hat switch on my joystick and it goes straight to the correct view and back to where I was looking (dash, HUD) as soon as I release it, whereas with headtracking, it's a slow struggle to get it to look exactly where I want and then another slow struggle to get back to where I was looking before!

 

I've done the fix to add the following to autoexec.cfg and don't have Force Feedback.

 

if not input then input = {} end

input.use_read_thread = false

[Thick8]

I use FTnoIR. I used to use FT. the difference was like night and day. I can't get to my gamerig right now but I will be on tomorrow night and will post several setting to make FTnoIR much better for you.

John

[doveman]

I use FTnoIR. I used to use FT. the difference was like night and day. I can't get to my gamerig right now but I will be on tomorrow night and will post several setting to make FTnoIR much better for you.

John

 

Thanks. I hope I'm just doing something badly wrong and it can be greatly improved ;)

[Thick8]

still not at my gamerig but we can start.

Make sure that none of your camera's image enhancing features are enabled (like low level light boost) and you are using it's native resolution.

One important question. Have you removed the IR filter from your camera and replaced it with a visible light filter?

I'll monitor the board just in case you're waiting.

Wait I just read you have a PS3 Eye. I'm gonna go read up on it. Is it an IR tracking device?

well it would seem that it is a visible light camera (not good for IR LED tracking). 120 FPS is good. The specs mention a zoom feature. It didn't mention if it's digital or mechanical?

Edited November 26, 2013 by Thick8

[doveman]

still not at my gamerig but we can start.

Make sure that none of your camera's image enhancing features are enabled (like low level light boost) and you are using it's native resolution.

One important question. Have you removed the IR filter from your camera and replaced it with a visible light filter?

I'll monitor the board just in case you're waiting.

Wait I just read you have a PS3 Eye. I'm gonna go read up on it. Is it an IR tracking device?

 

No rush, I'm off to bed soon anyway :)

 

I've made a visible light filter for the PS3 Eye and it seems to be tracking reasonably, although obviously the blobs would be a lot brighter without the IR filter. Some people have apparently opened it up and removed the filter but from what I've read, that then makes it go out of focus and become unusable without some further remedial work, so that's not something I plan to risk.

 

I'm running at 640x480@60fps (or 75fps seems to work in FTNoIR). I'm guessing it's just the settings (Curves, etc) that I have wrong that are causing the problems I mentioned but I could be wrong.

[Thick8]

The problem you are having is that you have to make so many adjustments to the camera and FT to make the camera see something it is made to block out. An modified inexpensive 60 FPS camera will serve you much better if you plan on using FT.

I use a 30 FPS Quickcam Comunicate STX. There are several on Ebay for about $5. It was easy to modify and works very well.

John

Edited November 26, 2013 by Thick8

[Falki]

Here are my Settings for FacetrackNoir with PS3eye and remocved IR-Filter!

Works verry well for me at all Modules!

I'm running at 640x480@75fps!

 

Best regads

Falki

DCS World1.rar

[doveman]

The problem you are having is that you have to make so many adjustments to the camera and FT to make the camera see something it is made to block out. An modified inexpensive 60 FPS camera will serve you much better if you plan on using FT.

I use a 30 FPS Quickcam Comunicate STX. There are several on Ebay for about $5. It was easy to modify and works very well.

John

 

It's wasn't really that hard to add a daylight filter (I used 3 squares of red, green and blue plastic, which I bought in A4 sheets from an art shop for a few quid) but it might be worth trying a different camera. The one you recommend is a 30fps one though, so that wouldn't seem to be as good as the PS3 Eye, as far as fps goes anyway.

[doveman]

Here are my Settings for FacetrackNoir with PS3eye and remocved IR-Filter!

Works verry well for me at all Modules!

I'm running at 640x480@75fps!

 

Best regads

Falki

 

Thanks Falki, I'll see if I can get it working well with your settings.

 

As you also use a PS3Eye, perhaps I could ask you a couple of questions?

 

Did you completely remove the IR-filter lens or just scrape off the red dot? If the former, didn't you find that it made the camera go out of focus and if so, what did you do to correct that?

 

Do you have the camera on top of or below your monitor? Obviously it's more out of the way on top and is less likely to be obstructed by stuff on the desk (including the joystick) so if you have it on top, it'll give me hope that I should be able to use it there too.

[Falki]

Here is the Postion of my camera. I removed the complete IR-Filter.

[doveman]

Here is the Postion of my camera. I removed the complete IR-Filter.

 

Thanks. Nice setup you got there, if only my space was so organised I could have the camera below the monitor no problem but as it is, it'll tend to get obscured by coffee mugs, papers, not to mention my joystick. I'm working on sorting it out though, so many plans :)

 

So after you removed the entire IR-filter, did you need to do anything to fix the focus issue? Maybe that doesn't actually matter if using the camera only for IR tracking (which is all I intend to use it for as the only video chat app I use, Jitsi, doesn't even recognise it) but I got the impression it did.

 

Are you using a cap or clip? I only ask as I understood it was best to have the camera off to one side in line with the clip, so as you have it in the centre I'd assume you use a cap but if you use a clip and it works fine, that'd be interesting to know.

[Thick8]

A visible light filter can be made from an unused 3.5" floppy disk. Just break it open and cut a piece of the disk thhat is inside the case and use that. That way the only thing your camera will see is IR light. I have my camera mounted on the top of my monitor with a -20 angle. Here's a link to some pics. http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=109693&highlight=pvc

John

Edited November 26, 2013 by Thick8

[Falki]

I have no Pice off Floppy Disc on my Cam, just remoed the IR-Filter, nothing else and works perfect with or without Light. Does´t Matter!

 

I just est the Focus on the lens off the Cam itself, just trurn the lens left or right to get the IR-Points as smal as possible.

No I have no Cab, I use a selfmade Clip! Here´s a Pic:

[doveman]

A visible light filter can be made from an unused 3.5" floppy disk. Just break it open and cut a piece of the disk thhat is inside the case and use that. That way the only thing your camera will see is IR light. I have my camera mounted on the top of my monitor with a -20 angle. Here's a link to some pics. http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=109693&highlight=pvc

John

 

Yeah I tried that first but my current filter seems more effective. As you can see from this chart (blue line) the floppy material isn't ideal as it blocks a lot of IR as well as daylight http://forum.free-track.net/index.php?showtopic=3205

 

Nice setup you've built yourself. It might inspire me to sort myself something out. If I understand, you're using a camera on top of your monitor (in the middle) with a side-mounted clip, so it appears I shouldn't have any problems doing the same.

[doveman]

Here are my Settings for FacetrackNoir with PS3eye and remocved IR-Filter!

Works verry well for me at all Modules!

I'm running at 640x480@75fps!

 

Best regads

Falki

 

Thanks Falki, your settings have made a massive difference and it's no longer "floating" and is quite accurate with Yaw and Pitch now :) :thumbup:

 

However, I can't enable Z as it's generating a lot of that when Yawing, so in the cockpit if I look left it zooms right in and if I look right it zooms right out (obviously I have Z mapped to Zoom in DCSW). I don't think it should be, as although the LEDS clearly do get closer to the camera when turning left and further away when turning right, FTNoIR should be able to tell that the LEDs are also moving on the Yaw axis, unlike if I was leaning forwards/backwards as I would if I was trying to zoom in/out. Then again, it needs to be able to zoom in when I'm not looking straight ahead, so I'm not really sure how it's supposed to detect when I want to zoom in and when I don't.

 

Roll isn't really usable either as it Yaws and Pitches too much when trying to roll my head.

 

I've got the camera lens on the turned left setting. Do you use that or the turned right one (sorry, can't remember which is zoomed in and which is zoomed out)?

[Thick8]

Yeah I tried that first but my current filter seems more effective. As you can see from this chart (blue line) the floppy material isn't ideal as it blocks a lot of IR as well as daylight http://forum.free-track.net/index.php?showtopic=3205

 

Nice setup you've built yourself. It might inspire me to sort myself something out. If I understand, you're using a camera on top of your monitor (in the middle) with a side-mounted clip, so it appears I shouldn't have any problems doing the same.

 

Great link. Where do I pick this filter up? Is it just regular 35mm film?

Edited December 2, 2013 by Thick8

[doveman]

Great link. Where do I pick this filter up? Is it just regular 35mm film?

 

Yeah. It has to be exposed, developed film as I understand it though, so you need to buy a film, pull it out to expose it to the light and then get it developed.

[doveman]

I rebuilt my clip today and was trying it with Falki's profile in the afternoon and it was actually quite solid in the Black Shark. I think what might have made the difference is that I'd measured the Model Position offsets as -150, 80, 50 but I ran the calibration inside FTNoIR and that calculated 120, -86, -1! I'm sure I measured right as I had a friend take the measurements to double-check as it was a bit impractical to do them accurately by myself whilst wearing my headphones and clip (I was fairly close but a bit off on some as I recall). Whatever, it seemed to work better after letting FTNoIR decide what to use ;)

 

However, it wasn't perfect as it would lose tracking and stick if I tried to turn far enough to look at my 9'o clock, which made it impossible to view the KA-50 Wall panel and certainly not the back panel (I had to pause tracking and use the mouse to view that) and when I tried it later in the evening, FTNoIR was now having trouble tracking 3 points consistently, even though I hadn't changed anything.

 

So I decided to take the plunge and remove the IR filter. I must have had the most awkward PS3 Eye in the world and it took me about an hour to even open the chassis as it seems to have been glued tight, so I had to scratch a groove along all the seams before I could start to pull the two halves apart.

 

Once dismantled, I then had to spend another hour carving away this hard dry stuff that was encasing the IR filter before I managed to get it out.

 

Put the thing back together, expecting amazing results but it still seems rather fussy :(

 

Even with my layered coloured plastic daylight filter (Green, Green, Red, Blue - I might not need two Green layers but previously I found two layers blocked visible light better, except two Blues blocked too much IR so I had to stick with one of that) and the Gain on 0, Exposure on about 50% and the White Balance on 40%, I've had to set FTNoIR as shown in these screenshots.

 

 

 

 

As you can see in the first screenshot, where I'm looking straight ahead, the blobs are rather big so I've had to increase the min/max Diameter but I've also had to set the Threshold to near the top, when I'm sure the advice I've received previously was to set it as near the other end as possible, so something doesn't seem right.

 

The second screenshot is with me looking to my left and up a bit, where it seems to hold tracking OK. The third screenshot is with me looking to my right and up a bit, where it struggles and tends to lose a point (or sometimes find a fourth!). It's particularly annoying as it's turning right that was giving me problems before and I thought it was just because the blobs were too weak through the IR filter and so getting lost when the LEDs were turned away from the camera but clearly they're not too weak now and it's still losing them for some reason :(

 

Do my images look similar to what other people who've removed the IR filter see and do you have to use similar settings to me (both camera settings (gain, exposure, white balance) and FTNoIR settings)?

[Mewle]

I just read that for film as a filter its best to take a photo of a cool florescent light with a 5 sec exposure then get it processed. This should block all light below about 750nm and have a sweet spot around 880nm depending on the film. 880 is perfect for the sfh485 LEDs

[doveman]

I just read that for film as a filter its best to take a photo of a cool florescent light with a 5 sec exposure then get it processed. This should block all light below about 750nm and have a sweet spot around 880nm depending on the film. 880 is perfect for the sfh485 LEDs

 

Might be easier just to buy one of these http://peauproductions.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=136_1_2_11&products_id=89

 

although it's $28 shipping to me in the UK, so if anyone can find the same thing in the UK/EU, please let me know as I'm not paying that.

[Mewle]

Might be easier just to buy one of these http://peauproductions.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=136_1_2_11&products_id=89

 

although it's $28 shipping to me in the UK, so if anyone can find the same thing in the UK/EU, please let me know as I'm not paying that.

 

That's what put me on the diy route

[Gisen]

Why not use a secondhand wiimote? They are really cheap now

[Mewle]

Why not use a secondhand wiimote? They are really cheap now

 

What speed are they hz wise?

[Gisen]

What speed are they hz wise?

100hz

And usually hovers near 100fps in freetrack (wiimote has its own signal processor I think)

[Mewle]

100hz

And usually hovers near 100fps in freetrack (wiimote has its own signal processor I think)

 

I got my LEDs and ps3eye up and running with facetracknoir and I'm very happy with it. Total cost was about £25. And once curves are tweaked it'll be easily as good as TIR.

 

will also try free track but initially it kept crashing the cam to the point I had to reinstall the drivers nearly every boot