Tactics against heat/radar seekers?

[blackbelter]

I've been having my butt kicked by AIs a lot lately, chiefly by their heat/radar seekers. They are too sneaky to my taste... I can't even handle one F16 AI armed with AIM-9M :helpsmilie:. Shame on me.

 

In addition to my incapability to avoid being shot at, R73 has also caused me a lot of troubles. It seems that, the launch authorization of R73 is valid for a split of a second. If I miss that (very very narrow) window, I'll have to get very close to the bandit before the launch authorization reappears on the HUD. In the mean time, F16 has thrown a handful of AIM-9 in the air, and one of them is bound to kiss me. Sometimes even before I get to launch my first R73.

 

So, if some of you kind souls can share your tactics against the heat/radar seekers, I will be most grateful. Furthermore, is R73 supposed to work in the way I described above? If not, what is it that I am doing wrong?

 

Thanks guys.

[Exorcet]

Your post is a little confusing. The missiles you've named are all heat seeking. There aren't any passive radar seeking air to air missiles in the sim, but there are radar guided missiles.

 

First off, R-73 vs AIM-9M should have a nice advantage for the R-73 user, though I noticed after patching yesterday, my AIM-9 had a decent seeker range, more than I remember. If you're tracking a target with radar, LA is determined by the ability of the missile to reach the target. If the radar detects that the enemy is not coming directly at you, it will reduce LA range. Turn off the radar and it's can do this. You'll get LA whenever the missile seeker detects the target. You might not hit anything this way though.

 

As for dealing with enemy IR missiles, you need to act preemptively. Don't try to get into IR weapon range in the first place. If you do get into IR weapon range, manage your thermal signature. Don't use afterburner excessively and deploy flare while beaming, even if you don't think a missile is coming.

[blackbelter]

Thanks for your answer, Exorcet.

 

My question now has changed to:

Is R73 even functioning in 1.2.7? Check the ACMI file attached. As you can hopefully see, the R73 that I shot at F16 wasn't even TRYING to pursue its target. The F16 was flying straight and level. No defensive measures were dispensed. Yet R73 simply ignores it, and flew at its own 'free will'. It's not out of energy, since it is high above F16 at the merge.

 

The launch range was another thing. As I have mentioned before, the launch window is about a split of a second, after which the launch Q reappears only when F16 is about 5 km away. I rarely survives this far into the game... since I am looking for the launch Q while being defensive. I get it that if the radar detects that F16 is not coming directly at me, it will reduce the launch range. But to 5 km? Really? Meanwhile, I have been going in zig-zag while dispensing counter-measures. I have also intermittently reduced the engin to its minimum power, using afterburner only when necessary. Yet F16 has no problem throwing AIM-9M at me.

 

If I lock on F16 using the EO tracking system, it can break lock almost certainly just before the launch Q appears. Then I can no longer relock it until much later. Again, I rarely survive that far, being defensive while looking to lock on it.

 

So, what is it that I am doing wrong? Please share your knowledge/experience.

 

Much appreciated.

Tacview-20140127-230625.rar

Edited January 27, 2014 by blackbelter

[Robin_Hood]

Wow, did I see that F-16 shoot an AIM-9M at 20 km ?! That sounds very for a Sidewinder launch, doesn't it ?

Edited January 28, 2014 by Robin_Hood

[GGTharos]

20km is ok under certain circumstances (30000' or above M0.9, very hot head-on target. High altitude lets missiles go far).

 

I see the F-16 launching at the claimed AIM-9 max range at that altitude, which is ok.

 

The catch here is that both aircraft seem to be launching missiles beyond the useful seeker range (or perhaps blackbelter was in AB, so the AI launched the missile. It seems the 9 switched from target to flares, or it was launched veeeeeery straight, which just ain't right).

 

The first R-73 is launched well outside seeker range.

 

Head-on seeker ranges tend to be quite short.

Edited January 28, 2014 by GGTharos

[Robin_Hood]

That's why I thought it a bit far, I was thinking seeker range. Well, anyway, a radar-guided missile is more appropriate in this kind of situation :)

[blackbelter]

20km is ok under certain circumstances (30000' or above M0.9, very hot head-on target. High altitude lets missiles go far).

 

(or perhaps blackbelter was in AB, so the AI launched the missile. It seems the 9 switched from target to flares, or it was launched veeeeeery straight, which just ain't right).

 

Thank you! I think that was the problem... In the initial phase of the approach, I was in AB indeed, thinking of increasing my speed amap, also thinking that I was outside its range anyway.

 

The launch Q of R-73 remains a myth, though. But it's not much of a concern now.

[GGTharos]

I don't really remember how the flanker's WCS works, but there's at least a missile missile seeker tone. I think the WCS will give you LA based on kinematics only (I could be wrong!) and the missile seeker tone is needed to know that the missile is tracking.

 

In-game, that F-16 may have been in AB momentarily and then come out, causing you to have LA for a moment and then lose it.

 

BTW, you can always dive to maintain speed.

[Robin_Hood]

I don't really remember how the flanker's WCS works, but there's at least a missile missile seeker tone. I think the WCS will give you LA based on kinematics only (I could be wrong!) and the missile seeker tone is needed to know that the missile is tracking.

 

In-game, that F-16 may have been in AB momentarily and then come out, causing you to have LA for a moment and then lose it.

 

BTW, you can always dive to maintain speed.

 

I'm not sure if it's different for the Su-27, but the Su-33 has the seeker lock tone only in Longitudinal mode (seeker mode). The LA appears only when the seeker has the target (very noticeable with the R-27ET, since it's kinematic range is so huge and it's seeker range is very dependant on conditions (sometimes more than kinematic range, sometimes less) ( you can see the LA appearing and disappearing with the changing conditions (esp. hostile aspect)).

 

I would think the Su-27 is the same ?

 

If you can reproduce the situation, maybe a track could help find out what happens to your poor R-73

[blackbelter]

Thanks guys!

 

You've said it all... I checked the trk file, and indeed F16 was in AB right until the moment the first LA appeared on my HUD. Then it switched off AB all the way until the merge. That explains why LA disappeared then.

 

It feels great learning this kind of things, which make DCS more like real life than anything else (including pretty visuals).

 

But shame on me. I should have figured this out by carefully examining the trk file by myself.

 

One side question about beaming. As far as I've heard, beaming is probably the safest thing to do if the only thing that I wanted was that missile losing my ass. But that is seldomly the case. In a missile fight, one also wants to maintain a potentially offensive position, or, at least, keep the knowledge on the whereabouts of the bandit. This is very difficult if one beams, since visual contact is easily lost in this way. That's why I have seldomly beamed. What's your opinion on this? Do you ever beam? If you do, under what conditions?

 

Thanks in advance.

Edited January 30, 2014 by blackbelter

[GGTharos]

That depends on a lot of things, so I won't go into it.

 

Beaming works to defeat missiles and radars (under particular circumstances).

 

If you're between 'not far enough' and 'too close', beaming helps, but it's not an automatic measure of success. If you're 'too far', the missile won't reach you, and if you're 'too close', the missile won't have time to turn with you.

 

In your scenario, a quick break with the throttle at low power setting and lots of flares should help, then get the nose back on bandit for the merge. Certainly pop one at him as soon as you can to make sure you're not the only one who's defending.