SgtPappy
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Posts posted by SgtPappy
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Yea, Vanir, I guess I'll buy it online. Everything's been easier recently just online... I would've bought the game a LONG time ago had it been on Steam.
A place in Canada where there are no igloos, if that's what you Yanks think :P
No worries, Tharos. Some day, I'll get to fly and maybe, if I'm lucky, I'll get the honours of getting shot down by you! :D Meanwhile, any good training sites for the Eagle? I think I'll start off with some classic gunzo combat to learn how it feels and then learn how to use the avionics, TEWS and countermeasures. First thing's first - gotta find someone who can train with me!
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It was unfortunate and quite strange that the people of Ukraine believed themselves to be 'liberated' from the Soviets when the Germans took over.
Air combat has evolved to more of an electronic form of warfare nowadays, which is why I opened this thread in hopes that some kind of traditional dogfight can be analyzed but with today's advanced weapons.
Do we have EM diagrams for the Su-27 and F-15C? I think that would be a good way to see where each aircraft can destroy each other.
Also, Vanir, if I ever get this game (as I cannot find it in Canada), I say we have a good classic gunzo fight for ol' time's sake :)
GGTharos, someday, I'd appreciate very much a duel with you. Perhaps you can show me the ropes when you have time and then I can judge for myself how to fly the planes! Thanks for your help thus far, btw. Very much appreciated.
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A thanks to Tharos is indeed due. The couple things stated helped me really understand just what seems to go on in this game.
Moa, of course it'd be very much productive to learn tactics but don't forget, when testing chemical reactions in a lab, one must remove as many variables that may cause error as possible. Then one will find a strong control variable on which to base experiments. That's just what we're doing here. When one learns the science of anything (including air combat), one must first understand a phenomenon, experiment or reaction from ideal conditions, then transfer into higher order understanding.
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Heh, I may need a glossary for OPLAN 5027, ROK, DPRK, UNCLAS... :D
At any rate, there was a member of the Aces High II community who was trusted as an authority on the F-15.
Of course the mature sim community understands the fact that we can easily take 'lives' for granted in a game, unlike in real-life. He stated that the caveat was really to take on a Flanker BVR and use the F-15 performance to stay BVR. Even then, he said a fight would be close between the two planes in a dog fight, but the Flanker's easier turning abilities means it's a little likelier to win WVR. Can an F-15 out-maneuver an Su-27 in real life? Maybe, with proper E-management. Is it worth the risk to do so in real life? Probably not.
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This isn't really that different. The difference is that you have a much higher performing aircraft than your WW2 plane, but the differences are still there and they are noticeable. The F-15C for example, at 'nominal combat load' meeting a flanker at 'nominal combat load' has an insane climb (aka energy) advantage over the flanker at 21000' + within 0.8-1.2M (and further into the supersonic with the -220s). Really, it comes down to the pilots in the end - whoever gets to sucker the other guy into his fight wins.
Things happen faster, but it isn't like they're different. All the signs are the same, the behaviours are the same, and in the end a mature dogfight ends up at 250kt on the deck anyway.
This is good to know, though of what value is all that acceleration and climb rate if the missile's bound to hit you? I remember you mentioning a careful vert. rolling scissors could be won, but it wouldn't be easy. I guess it's all about keeping in Rmin then, and somehow keeping at corner speed as much as possible while making sure the Flanker isn't at its corner speed.
And about the long missions, oh I've had my share... the best of mine was landing back at home base in an F4U-4, 3 kills under my belt. Though in Ace High II, the -4 didn't have much range, but even a half-hour sortie felt pretty long! Had to land once to re-arm and refuel. Of course, that was when the game was free!
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What are the most outstandingly unrealistic things you've noticed in this game (particularly in BVR)?
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Vanir, I very much appreciate your post just as much as GGTharos' posts and the others' input. It gave me a good new look on how I analyze modern aircraft.
Aces High II and Il-2 were genuinely exciting WWII sims and from your post, it's easier to deduce the differences of energy management and fighting styles since then. I used to fly the Spitfire VIII most of the time which was one of the best compromises between a turn fighter and an energy fighter in WWII terms. It was great for the simple fact being able of out-turning those which I could not out-run and out-run those which I could not out-turn.
Now it's advanced, just as exciting and a whole lot more complicated. Extending now means being BVR and, like you mentioned, WVR or CWC means staying low.
I think your comment on "energy is now on tap" was a great summation to the today's fighter aircraft performance from an aerodynamic view.
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Oh, there's no doubting that.
I think the last time Su-27s fought was in 2008 during the South Ossetia skirmishes. There were Su-27SMs in service at that time; I have no clue whether they've fought or not, but by this time frame F-15C and Super Hornets were entering service with AESA radar...
I very much would believe US planes with AESA would really give the current Su-27 some trouble.
Of course, Su-30's and whatnot may be issues for today's NATO birds but those planes have never even seen combat.
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That must really be balls for Su-27 pilots trying to find a WVR fight...
I suppose that's why many believe it would be fun to have Su-27SMs simply because the planes will be more equal BVR.
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Most of the countermeasures in this game involve flares/chaff and jammers.
I read in another thread, someone complaining about the Russian jammers being a problem for his F-15 BVR. How would you get rid of a jammer threat if your main strength is to fight BVR?
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Ah gotcha. Missiles can't be easy to model.
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That's what I like about modern planes. Working in teams is necessary for real success.
However, both the Su-27 and F-15 are perfectly capable of 1 vs 1 BVR combat right (while tactics change and success rate changes with numbers of units)?
Su-27's got longer range missiles and the F-15's got a better radar system and active-RG AMRAAMs.
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Realizing that I had a collisions in Ace High II due to a horribly close-quarters rolling scissors battle on a regular basis, then hopefully getting upfront won't be too bad in the F-15C.
As far as I can tell from everyone's input, the F-15C is meant to fight BVR or, when no other option is available, very up close in a tight E-fight.
I now have to learn the different radar/IFF/TEWS operational procedures to learn :D
Thanks gents.
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Ah alright. Vertical rolling scissors makes sense... a combination of turning ability and E-management keeps the F-15 competitive in that maneuver.
By Rmin, do you mean keeping the bandit so close, missiles would be tough to use?
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Hm. Thus speed and climbing abilities must be used mostly to get away and get a sneaky kill BVR. That's very new to me coming from WWII flight sims, but very interesting.
Some of the others however have stated that an energy/E fight is indeed possible, but very difficult. I suppose maneuvering in the vertical and using old-school throttle management (like P-38 pilots almost exclusively did) could help one gain angles on the Flanker as well.
Or is the F-15 just so outclassed in the maneuvering department to not even attempt a vertical maneuver approach to gain angles?
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If you have to get into a dogfight, open with an AIM-9 launch - it's hard to see and the bandit might just not see it coming.
After the merge, if you choose 2-circle, he might eat your lunch since a flanker will out-rate you and he has that HMS to launch sooner with, so you may want to include getting shot at in your plan.
One circles aren't much better, but you can try to rmin him and start rolling scissors which if you play -very- carefully you can win. Flat scissors, forget it - the flanker easily wins that one.
In short, nail them BVR (beyond 5 nm) ;)
If the fight is gunzo, boom and zoom will work just fine, you must have to step on the rudder to divest the poor flanker pilot of the idea that there's such a thing as 'dodging' ;)
All dog fighting aside, pilots in WWII used to shoot down bandits without even really energy/fighting or gaining angles. Sometimes it was just Boom and Zoom.
I heard the F-15C's top speed is better than the Su-27S' by some 60 - 100 mph as a function of altitude. Suppose the situation is still one F-15C vs one Su-27S, equal E-state, no AWACS and the two fighters ended up somehow in WVR combat (but they have all their missiles available and are at ~45% fuel load).
If an F-15C pilot uses that extra speed in combination with a the higher TWR, can't an he/she continue to fly past the enemy (i.e. extend) at the merge rather than turn around immediately, make some type of reversal, fire, and continue to do the same until he/she gets a kill (or gets killed)? In the end the question is would the F-15 pilot be able to reverse before hit by a missile?
Also, I heard that the flaps in FC2 are bugged on the F-15? Not sure though if it's still like that though.
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Hm yes. BnZ and E-fighting has got to be terribly more difficult now than in any WWII sim I play. Must be quite difficult to beat Flankers in any WVR fight then.
I suppose if I fly the F-15, it'll be BVR combat mostly and when flying the Su-27, it's be more like the classic dogfight... but with missiles. :)
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What's the overall opinion of F-15 going WVR, 1 on 1 with the plane set in this game:
1) gunzo?
2) every weapon except BVR-capable systems?
The obvious challenge in 1) is the Su-27 and -33 Flankers. However, with a better TWR, top speed and acceleration, a gunzo battle could still be won with how the Americans won a2a battles in WWII -i.e. through speed and vertical maneuvers while rarely suckering into a dog fight.
2) is tougher. If the Eagle were to use its vertical maneuvering capabilities, acceleration, would it be able to splash the Flanker?
Or would the Su-27 or Su-33 find a shot opportunity so quickly that an Eagle pilot wouldn't even be able to extend/climb sufficiently to dodge/beam/decoy a missile?
I ask because the F-15 has been a favorite jet of mine ever since I learned what a jet was.
I'm planning on getting the game after school. (OT: Apparently the F-15C's flaps are unfortunately in God-Mode?)
F-15 WVR capabilities
in Lock On: Flaming Cliffs 1 & 2
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Oh alright, my apologies, then Tharos. Forgive my ignorance heh.
Well with the wealth of information you've got, you don't sound like a noob. I bet you shoot down Flankers within their Rmin with guns on a weekly basis :P