Rainmaker
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Posts posted by Rainmaker
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Just now, Silver_Dragon said:
Someone remember Larry Zambrano and Leonardo Salvatore RAZBAM teams has codders?
You wanna post the rest of the context of that screenshot or no? Screenshot has nothing to do with further development in its current state. Development is not currently on-going. Perfectly meets the definition of being unsupported at this time. Has absolutely nada to do with whether the RB team is still intact or not. There, I’ll add the context for you.
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2 minutes ago, Silver_Dragon said:
"Unsoported Product"..... RAZBAM discord show future updates on the next path to South Atlantic map....
Do we ignore the ones without coder support or nah?
Asking for a friend
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Shadow-removing posts now are we? I’m taking pictures as I post BTW.
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24 minutes ago, NineLine said:
I stand by what I said already. It's not for us to debate but for the management teams to solve, and nothing here is as easy as it seems.
That’s fine. Those were rhetorical questions anyway. Or maybe ones for the consumer to be asking themselves.
As for me….don’t worry….I’m looking right past ya.
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6 hours ago, NineLine said:
I am sure if it were that easy it would not have come to this, sadly. I understand your loyalty to them as well as being one of their SME's so I appreciate that. But as I said both sides have a part in this and both sides need to rectify it. It's not for us to figure out, or guess at what and how that should happen it's for the management teams of the two groups. Thanks.
NL, lets be honest here. It is that easy and you know perfectly well it is. It isn’t because of simple reasons.
A. The individual doesn’t want to
or
B. Funds not available to do so.
Lets not make that out to be any harder than it is. The individuals who paid for the module are having their funds used as a ‘carrot’, chess piece, whatever you want to call it. That’s easily not the case if individuals so chose for it not to be that way. Was anyone asked if they wanted their funds to be used in that fashion? That really looking out for the customer? Choices are being made to do that. End of story.
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1 hour ago, NineLine said:
Like it or not, all our paying customers feel punished by this and no matter what anyone thinks or believes the share is, both sides share the blame of anyone feeling punished which is why the path to the quickest resolution is needed and I hope both are committed to that. I can only speak for ED but I truly want to believe both sides see and feel this urgency.
Well, I’m sure the paying customers didn’t pay their money to be held as a litigation tool between parties either, nor was that their intent for it, but here we are. So, talk to yo people, have them pay those people that put forth the man hours to put the -15 in the game (pretty sure that was the buyers intent), and everyone else can go back to doing what they were doing 2 months ago. After that, the two at the top can go have whatever jousting match they wanna have and leave everyone else, and the money they spent out of it. Sounds like pretty darn easy solution to me. Pretty sure no one would continue to feel ‘punished’ after that right?
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1 hour ago, Oban said:
Has there been any change in the stance from the CEO that they have no intention in abandoning their product then?
Additionally, that guy, is probably his own worst enemy when it comes to social media. Someone make me God for a day and I will change all his passwords....along with about another 1000 public figures (I have a list) in the world. Consider that a promise.
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39 minutes ago, Oban said:
Has there been any change in the stance from the CEO that they have no intention in abandoning their product then?
I dunno?!?
I would just ask, where's the money gonna come from? Rational question I feel like. I don't feel like there ever was an intent to pack up and leave which was what a bunch of initial claims were from the community. 'Oh, they are just abandoning ship, taking our money and running'. Remember when everyone was accusing the CEOs statement of being made up and surely they had been paid? Surely no one works this long without payment? Pepperidge Farm remembers. Probably still remnants of that in this thread most likely. Where are we at now? Everyone put that speculation to be since it's been confirmed?
In the end,, money has to come from somewhere. Developers have to eat and provide for their family. You have spent it, the people that are wanting to support it don't have it. That's where we are.
The end question for the consumer needs to be, "Are you okay with the money you paid not being in the hands of the person who spent hours at their computer making it for you?'. Or in the hands of someone who didn't? That's for everyone else to decide. Me personally, not a fan. That $50 everyone spent (only speaking for one module here) won't get anyone very far these days, certainly not me. I have one bill under that, can't fill the gas tank, etc etc. But that conglomerate of money turns in to tens of thousands and likely hundreds of thousands of dollars for those who spent 5+ years developing something on the idea that they would be able to use the rewards from that to pay their bills, provide for family, and someday maybe have a retirement. Right now, that's not happening. The whole ordeal is much grander than what equates to a hobby for me. Just my $0.02
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1 minute ago, Oban said:
Oh it's been fairly obvious as to which side of the fence you're on, and where your allegiances lie, and there's no problems with that.
It's commendable that you're more concerned about those behind the scenes at Razbam rather than the consumers, the way I see it, both have lost out, as for the employees, the moral dillema for them is walking out of a company that's been unable to pay them, and risk losing not getting paid at all, or staying put, and still not getting paid, a tough choice.
I do see your point and where you're coming from, personally I will wait for the lawyers to hash this out, but thats possibly going to take a considerable amount of time, and in the meantime, that doesn't help Razbam employees, I highly doubt they can sustain several more months without facing liquidation or bankruptcy.. and they will cease to be, and that's the last thing employees, clients or customers want.
It's a shyt show, and the relationship between both parties will never be the same again, and more than likely untenable, no amount of refunds will help the Razbam employees in this case.Well, right now there are no refunds, store credit? Wanna guess where the money stays? And what could less sales receipts of the F-15 do? I’ll let everyone else solve that equation.
You can only work on the premise of an IOU for so long. That time has come. So, no, I can sit there and agree that the community is being held for ransom. Unfortunate bystander? Yes. Agreed. The way I see it, that IOU is now years old, not months. Years of dev time on the idea that it equates to food on the table at the end of the day.
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3 minutes ago, Oban said:
That's not what I said, and well you know it, I have stated multiple times, that all of this should have been done through legal representatives, and not thrown into the public, and holding them all to ransome, you may think that's an acceptable strategy, I don't.
Are you privy to the terms and conditions of when payments will be made and to the invoicing procedures between Razbam and Eagle Dynamics?
Are you privy to all the communications in that 10 month period between Razbam Finance department and Eagle Dynamics Finance department ?
Are you privy to the emails between Razbam Finance requesting payment and the submitted invoices as per the terms and conditions ?
Are you privy to the meeting between Razbam stakeholders as to how they're going to proceed with receiving their funds and the passing of the decision to go through legal channels
Are you privy to the meeting between Razbam CEO/Finance Department and their legal representatives in which to raise the issue through legal matters?
Are you privy to the meeting between all Razbam employees in which they all agreed that going public and creating a shytstorm ?
Are you privy to the alleged dispute over IP rights ?
Are you privy to the possibility of NDA's between both parties ?
My guess is the answer is no, you have no real clue, you're not in any loop, nor in a position to know the entire story, you're in the dark as much as the rest of us, and you're venting. That is your prerogative, as a customer, it's your right.
I have been in a position within a company where it took over a year to get invoices paid by a client, when it should have been a matter of 90 days max as per their contractual terms and conditions, of which I wrote, even having meetings with their CEO to try and resolve outstanding invoices, and they still dragged their heels..
Regardless of the non payment Razbam should have had contingencies in place for paying their employees, and all of them should have had clauses in their terms and conditions as to which they'd have protections in place for such issues, how many razbam employees went public about not getting paid for 10 months? How many Razbam employees sought legal advice as they'd not received a salary in 10 months?
Nobody starts a project and expects a deferred payment with no explanation as to why it's not forthcoming, when the project is released, albeit in early access...
Again, not one person venting here has access to the terms and conditions.
ED wouldn't withold payment of invoice without probable cause, and just reason, until that reason gets made public, which is highly unlikely, then the shytshow will keep rolling on.And if there was no probable cause? Then what? So far, there was a very broad-brush accusation made to IP infringement. Why respond at all if that’s the case?
The payments that were never made support both you and the devs that have rack up thousands of man-hours in order to get to a releasable state. That happened, and there has been no compensation. You honestly think it got to this point without any prior deliberation? That you were the first choice at the negotiating table? If not, I stand by what I stated the first time. You were never ‘held hostage’ over anything. The customer is a result of fallout, that’s it. If you find that tree that magically grows money, I’m sure development could continue. Until then, there is an end state and the road ends. The pavers have no money to work. Matter of fact, they are in the negative. You could have seen the same scenario play out 6,7,8 months ago instead of now, but you didn’t…you were given continued support and not ‘held hostage’ instead.
As for venting over the module as a customer, you don’t know me all that well obviously. The module doesnt mean that much to me. I started playing DCS again to support the module, and basically nothing more. I can easily leave it behind and do something else. What I do care about is good people, that I personally know, giving up 1000s of personal hours for unpaid work while someone else gets to play with the money as they see fit. And so far, again, that’s based on a very broad-brushed claim that’s been made, without a court decision mind you, that someone is guilty of something based on a single-part opinion. Not a court opinion, a single party. So yes, forgive me if I take a side over someone’s income source to make a living vs someone’s hobby. But don’t assume you have any idea about what I know or my reason for being here.
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2 minutes ago, Oban said:
Yes he's correct, Ron opted to hold his module owners to ransom, good faith works both ways too.
Razbam should have gone through their legal team and exhausted all resources instead of shafting every single Razbam module owner to get what he wanted, classy move on his part... said nobody ever.
Not one person here knows what the terms and conditions are/were between ED and Razbam, that's down to them to negotiate, but going on a rant on public platform rarely works well for the rantee, the road to hell is paved with good intention, that being said Razbam cares not a jot about the customers who own their models if they're threatening to abondon all their products entirely , they'll be totally finished as a 3d developer. If they cared, they'd have considered the wider consequences.
For all those demanding that ED stop selling Razbam products, it's not that simple, why not just disable all current razbam products right now if Razbam are not going to support the products anylonger ... Razbam have not put out a statement to say they're closing down, and that there will never be updates again, all they've stated is that until the legal issues have been resolved, then they're not going to update their products.
Have they terminated all the contracts of all their current staff, told all their coders they're closing the door for good? No they have not, they want this issue to be fixed as much as anyone else, is it a shyt show? for sure it is, is there going to be a loser? highly likely, at the moment the consumer is the one losing out on updates, that's all, nothing else has been set in stone. All Razbam modules are still functioning, and will continue to function until either party make a decision that will end it all, and that could be months away, even longer.
Oh. So in your mind, continue to work for free? Cater to you and not the income developers deserve for their work? How non-selfish of you to consider you are not the only party involved.
There was statement made. The one that likely had to be made, instead of just being silent, with no development. Was it does to influence opinion? Probably. Was it done to ‘punish’ you? Like…seriously? Think of that beyond the fact that just you exist.-
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Just now, Major_Mayhem said:
You know this doesn't have to have anything to do with who is in the right or the wrong.
Razbam stopped supporting/developing their products to punish the player base, so that the player base would put pressure on Eagle Dynamics motivating them (ED) to give Razbam what they want.
Not getting into the problems between ED and Razbam but at the end of the day Razbam chose to stop developing/supporting there products for ED's DCS world.
Eagle Dynamic has chosen to continue selling said products while their customer base screams and cries for refunds on those same Razbam products they paid real money for that are no longer being supported let alone developed by the developer Razbam.
Currently Only a handful of people have received refunds out of all the people that have requested one.
Most of my squadmates have asked for refunds on the F15E alone .... to the best of my knowledge so far only 1 the first has actually received a refund and we all submitted ours the same way with the same format.
ED should stop selling Razbam Products until this is resolved. Just Sayin!Punish? You mean like the last 10 months they worked without pay to support the module? That punishment? I think you need to be looking at this from a different perspective.
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1 hour ago, lead dispenser said:
you don't seem to understand basic business practices these people are not over the back fence mates they are business partners an legal contracts are written for this very reason .
they wouldn't stop payment unless they were legally obligated to do so
Perhaps look into the high possibility, based on pretty credible reports, that this isn't the first time this has happened before 'assuming' everything has to be a certain way.
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37 minutes ago, nessuno0505 said:
We do not have a clue about payments, the only thing we know is that some ex razbam developer has complained about not being paid. Someone also mentioned a presumed unauthorized use of the DCS license for a military client by RB. Both those things are just speculation. RB decided to stop development, blaming "extarnal factors" (namely ED); ED answered that it's not true. End of the official statements.
Are you not keeping up with things? Speculation?
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22 minutes ago, LordOrion said:
It does not make any sense to me: why ED should refuse to talk with RB?
Inviato dal mio iPad utilizzando Tapatalk ProPersonal opinion, I would not be looking to ED to do that. More a single, or very few, particular individuals.
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46 minutes ago, VpR81 said:
The International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination defines racist discrimination "as any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on "race", colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin". Means, racism is not limited to "race", but has various forms and outcomings. I suggest you overthink your statement about me coming off as the racist here.
As for the rest, it doesen´t get me sleepless nights. Believe it or not, my feelings aren´t hurt in any way and your response does not sound harsh. At least not to me.Uhm... no. Go back further. I have clearly stated that RB did a great job with the F-15E and that its EA release was one of the best we ever had in DCS. Can´t remember the rest as it was a few weeks ago, but i have definately been tending to RB before. As for the confrontation, yes. Absolutely, i have been hoping for some of them to get here and deny anything i´ve said, hence the screenshots. I do get, that some ppl are upset that this didn´t stay under the rug. As said before, the behavior on the RB discord changed significantly since yesterday, so this did make a difference and i couldn´t be too wrong, don´t you think?
That was a single post and i have no problem admitting that i was shocked about this beeing tolerated. Not the behavior itself. That is just disgusting and doesen´t touch me. The rest is general and in no way related to me. Maybe except for saying that i´m done with RB and why. But this is what a lot of people in this thread said. If you think that´s the "me" card, well. Feel free.
That´s your right to do so, but, no offense, i don´t care. Not even a little bit.
Well, judged by the fact that this had some major impact on the behavior on said discord channel, i´d say i play the game pretty good
Nope. Again: The International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination defines racist discrimination "as any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on "race", colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin
Again, you constantly leave bread crumbs wherever you go. You had one guy that was basically acting just as childish as you became. You posted with the intent of trolling/stirring the pot, then continued just to try and justify a reason to complain. Then further trying egg it on via forum posts. ‘Underbred’. ‘Take your pills’ ring a bell here? Again, you and ONE other person, both acting like children
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19 minutes ago, VpR81 said:
Where exactly do i play the "me" card. I´ve asked what his conclusion of reversed racism is based of. That´s all, the rest is about general stuff going on. If you can´t take it, maybe social media is not for you?
You got in a discord spat with another person, and looking at your post history over there, was quite literally your first significant post over there, obviously looking for a confrontation with someone. Then you are off elsewhere to complain to everyone else about someone else’s behavior towards you. Yes, that’s playing the ‘me’ card. Subsequent posts show a history of nothing more than trying to grind an ax over the same. You had people at the time telling that both sides were acting like children yet you conveniently left that part out. Haven’t agreed with Hammer on a single thing so far in this thread, but finding myself doing it now. Your follow-up posts inviting confrontation over a group of people to do nothing but create more confrontation just adds to it. You are trying to play a game that you can’t play very well.
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3 minutes ago, VpR81 said:
And your conclusion is based on what? Anyways, nice try sir. Desperate, but nice. And as for your other question, you got your answer. Didn´t expect me to have evidence? Now how about responding to my question? Don´t you think that judging people by the place they were born is a form of racism? And does ED tolerate the things i posted?
But, according to the RB discord, i am the one who had no access to equal education? Yeah sure....ROFL (Want screenshot?)
Idiotic? You saw the screenshot i provided in my recent post. You don´t want to tell me, that this was just calling russians "russians", do you? Believe it or not, but everything i said (and will say) about what is/was going on at the RB discord, is backed with screenshots. And it´s not like you need to watch discord all the time, it is enough to open it like 2 or 3 times a day and it´s almost everytime a hit without scrolling up. Or better was, as the tone on the RB discord surprisingly changed significantly since yesterday, with M2M even jumping in asking for people not to post such stuff anymore. Why such a 180° turn just because of some nonsense posted on the ED forum? I´m pretty sure they wouldn´t, if there weren´t any screenshots of all this. Seems to be the effect when ppl realise their disgusting and primitive language is carried out to the public and they can´t deny it anymore. Very telling, isn´t it? As i said, RB is done for me. And not because of the ED/RB dispute, no, definately not (in fact, i have been tending towards RB in this case, if you check my posts before these things took place - i have been with RB). Because of the tone, hate speech, racism (yes, racism) and personal attacks (i have even seen someone wondering about what the ED staff is doing with ukrainian kids - again, got a screenshot) they have been tolerating on their discord for weeks / months. You go along with things you tolerate, that´s a fact.
And btw: The best thing is, i have seen multiple ppl on the RB discord having the russian flag in their nickname. What do you think must these ppl feel like when they have to read such things? I don´t wan´t to imagine what would be going on there, if the ED team would be of muslim or jewish believe....Wait...
Razbam asked ED (according to Notso) multiple times to take the F-15E out of the ED store, while at the same time they mysteriously forgot that they have their own homepage advertising the Mudhen and linking it to the ED store? Oh realy? I do understand the homepage isn´t their first priority with all these things going on, but if you rant on someone (especially in the way the RB devs did), you should get your own stuff together before doing so. I don´t think this is asked too much, do you?
And when the ppl on the RB discord get confronted with this fact, all they can say is "this should not be put against RB"? Well, fair enough. I would agree, i realy would. If RB wouldn´t rant on ED prior to get their stuff together. But even if, that is not a one way ticket. ED trying to solve this behind closed doors should also not be put against them. Wether the Mudhen should be taken out of the store or not, is debatable. I´ve seen reasonable arguements here for both ways. I personally don´t think that taking the mudhen out of the store will be good for any side, but that is up to them.My gosh….would you stop trying to play the ‘me’ card n this thread over and over. Perhaps social media in general is not the place for you.
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26 minutes ago, NineLine said:
Using Discord or other social media to try and sway people to you or them being right is not professional and it's not fair to anyone, especially our customers.
Pot call kettle?!?Try harder than that….the entire community deserves it.
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Just now, j9murphy said:
perhaps, although that is (intentionally) a bit vague null
Indeed. Vague without substance doesnt help the situation either. If what the more-vocal side has said is true.
A. The claim has nothing has nothing to do with DCS or the modules withinB. It relates to a module (if you wanna call it that), that doesn’t exist in anything that’s usable to this point.
Take from all that what you wish. That’s all in what you want to believe to be the case.
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CDES does not properly update designations in real time on movers. It's a known issue. So yes, in a way, if all other things are being done right, it's likely a contributor to the issue or the main cause. As has been mentioned earlier, the designation needs to lead the target to get the bomb in the right 'basket' to track the laser.
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36 minutes ago, j9murphy said:
This is all speculation on my part below, but I have a lot of experience with contracts and software platforms and there seems to be a lot of speculation by people who just know the situation sucks for everyone. it does – no argument there. The following scenario is my own, I only offer it to demonstrate to people there is a bigger picture out there and in the end it’s better not to blame, and to just hold out hope and have a little faith in ED. If these have already been written about, then I apologize. I don’t really have time read all that’s been written here and elsewhere…
Assumption #1: ED holds the money. I think this is a good assumption. ED owns the platform, and has a vested interest in protecting its user base and ensuring we get quality products from 3rd party providers like Razbam.
Assumption #2: Releasing the money requires 3rd party vendors like Razbam to meet certain contractual requirements, and that release is probably in several tranches as those requirements are met.
Assumption #3: In the eyes of ED, Razbam failed to meet certain criteria in the contract that would have led to the release of the next tranche of money. Here’s where things get sticky, we don’t know if Razbam was running short of cash and wanted an early release of some of that money, or the contract was written poorly and each side is interpreting those payment hurdles differently, or if ED felt that Razbam was in danger of no longer being a going concern. There could be other explanations as well. However, one could assume that ED believes it is protecting its users. If it gives the money to Razbam and they go out of business before it is finished, or they are in danger of not being able to deliver what is promised, then all of us who bought the module would probably be asking for a refund because we weren’t given what we were promised. If ED gave all the money to Razbam and we all wanted a refund, then who is left holding the empty bag – why ED of course. The last thing ED wants is to owe those refunds out of its own pocket, that’s probably why they hold the money, and to release it, the vendor (Razbam in this case) has to meet certain requirements.
Assumption #4: ED and Razbam are trying to find a way forward where Razbam remains a going concern, they get paid what they are owed, DCS customers get a quality, finished product and everyone is happy.
If the moderator thinks this speculation is harmful, is way off base (or too close to home), please delete the post, I wont argue. I just think people are throwing stones when they probably don’t really understand the environment this is playing out in. I don’t know if the above is what’s going on, I have no knowledge of the situation, but I do think both parties are incented to find a resolution.
No need to speculate on any of that really. Read the statement from NG on what is being accused, and it has nothing to do with what you are thinking.
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5 hours ago, Hammer1-1 said:
You seem to think that Razbam -other than the aformentioned improper actions- hasnt done anything wrong. I can assure you (and you would know had you been paying attention to Razbam over the years and years like myself) that they arent without guilt. Again, what have you seen over the years regarding Razbam and their quality of work? Thats what I asked you but you spouted off about Falcon 3 or whatever. Cognitive dissonance I guess. Failing to meet contractual obligations will result in you not getting paid or your contracts cancelled, thats how business works - again you should already know this.
When you have something useful to bring to the table besides 'trust me I know cause I followed them' then you can let the rest of us know. Until then...pretty much a waste of time.
RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)
in RAZBAM
Posted
RB stating they were not being currently developed? You’re here but don’t know.
RB doesn't even have a store. And no, there are no links.
Take less breaks. Pay more attention to what is going on.