Invader ZIM
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Posts posted by Invader ZIM
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MLRS comes to mind, and LORA, unless they have the U.S. Atacms in an export version. If you want to overwhelm the system, I'd use barrage jamming from multiple directions by having the ECM set up on multiple cheap drones or land based since we're so close to the threat to entice the the S-300 to wake up and fire, while I fired multiple rounds from the LORA system, the round itself is small and maneuvering, and I'd have each round maneuver differently and come from different directions if applicable depending on range which coupled with the jamming, they would be a tough target I would imagine. Even if the S-300 attempted to intercept, it would be prohibitively expensive for Syria since they apparently will have a very limited number of S-300 sites, and also missiles available for the system. If the system isn't knocked out directly, it will soon become combat ineffective, all without even using HARM laden Israeli aircraft.
http://missilethreat.com/missiles/lora/
LORA (Long Range Artillery Rocket) which is similar to the U.S. ATACMS. Each LORA missile weighs 1.23 tons and carries a half ton warhead. With a range of 300 kilometers, GPS guidance is used to land the warhead within 10 meters (31 feet) of the aim point. These missiles are expensive. The similar U.S. ATACMS, which is fired from a MLRS container that normally carries six of the standard MLRS rockets, cost a million dollars each. It's often a lot cheaper if you can use smart bombs (which cost less than $50,000). But if you don't have aircraft up there, or control of the air is contested, you can get a LORA missile on a target within ten minutes of the order being given.
If the war escalates and Syria Egypt and Iran attack, there's a solution, and you can see it on Google Maps:
Eilabun [ilabun] is reportedly a tactical nuclear weapons storage facility in eastern Galilee. One of two Israeli nuclear weapons storage facilities, it is located near the town of the same name immediately west of the Sea of Gallilee off Route 65. It is speculated that that Tirosh is the strategic weapons storage site, while Eilabun is the tactical weapons storage site. Eilabun reportedly stores tactical nuclear artillery shells, nuclear landmines and other tactical nuclear weapons. -
otto, out of the many concerns which are outlined below in the Reuters article, I think one of the big concerns is that the S-300 has such a long range that Syria could use it as leverage against civilian aircraft operating at Israeli airports. Israel's neighbors have a long history of targeting civilian public transportation and aircraft in attacks, and such a system that allows interception of aircraft over Israel proper is not acceptable to them.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/30/us-syria-crisis-israel-s300-analysis-idUSBRE94T0IZ20130530
(Reuters) - Israel could overcome advanced S-300 anti-aircraft missiles if they were deployed in Syria but any strikes on the system would be difficult and risk alienating its supplier, Russia.Israel has pledged to take preventive action, seeing a future Syrian S-300 as a "game-changing" threat to its own airspace as well as to the relative free rein with which it now overflies its northern foe and neighboring Lebanon.
Experts agree that Israeli sabotage or open force to disrupt delivery by Russia is extremely unlikely - a view seemingly shored up by Syrian President Bashar al-Assad's announcement on Thursday that the first missiles had arrived.
That leaves Israel lobbying Moscow to slow down the shipment in hopes it would be overtaken and scrapped if Assad fell to a more than two-year-old rebellion, and in parallel preparing counter-measures to neutralize the S-300 on the ground in Syria.
The Israeli newspaper Haaretz quoted National Security Adviser Yaakov Amidror as warning European diplomats that Israel would "prevent the S-300 missiles from becoming operational". That may be achieved by ensuring Assad does not get the full system, experts say, or by disabling it militarily if he does.
"The S-300 would be the pinnacle of Russian-supplied arms for Syria," Colonel Zvika Haimovich, a senior Israeli air force officer, told Reuters in an interview. "Though it would impinge on our operations, we are capable of overcoming it.
He said Israel's "red line" on the S-300 was "between Syria and others". This was a hint Israel might hold off on bombing the batteries as long they did not appear set on shooting down planes within Israeli airspace, of being transferred to Lebanese Hezbollah guerrillas or to Iran - both staunch allies of Assad and enemies of Israel, or of being looted by Islamist rebels.
MARKETING MOSCOW
The Israelis excel in electronic warfare. In 1982, they "blinded" Soviet-supplied Syrian anti-aircraft units in Lebanon, then destroyed 19 of them without Israeli losses. Similar technologies helped Israeli jets destroy a suspected nuclear reactor in Syria in 2007 and, this year, to hit Syrian targets on at least three occasions to prevent what intelligence sources called attempts to move advanced weaponry to Hezbollah.
A source close to Russia's defense ministry agreed that the Israelis "likely have a million ways to combat the S-300 electronically". But he questioned their feasibility because they had not been tested in war.
"So, whether the S-300 would fail or not cannot be known".
Robert Hewson, an IHS Jane's air power analyst, predicted Israeli prowess would prevail in Syria while cautioning that the S-300 would be the most formidable air defense system it had ever faced. "Israel has had nasty surprises from these things before," he said, noting its steep losses to the Soviet anti-aircraft missiles used by Syria and Egypt in the 1973 war.
Hewson felt Israel would prefer to destroy the S-300 in Syria but may opt instead just to circumvent it as required for missions, especially if there was the risk of inadvertently killing or wounding Russians helping to install the system.
Security sources have put the number of Russian military personnel in Syria at several hundred.
"The Russians would react badly to losing their people, and Israel knows that equally," Hewson said.
Former Israeli defense minister Moshe Arens said Moscow should be mindful of the harm that seeing the S-300 defeated in Syria would do to exports of the system elsewhere.
Past clients include Cyprus, whose S-300, posted on the Greek island of Crete, may have given Israel's air force a chance for test runs during maneuvers over the Mediterranean.
"I'd be very surprised if the Russians deliver this system (to Syria)," Arens told Israel Radio. "It would become apparent that our air force is capable of besting this system, and that would not make for good advertising."
Playing down the strategic challenge that would be posed to Israel by a Syrian S-300, Arens added. "We are not afraid. This would simply change the situation, and we are not interested in the situation being changed to our detriment."
HAZY DEPLOYMENT TIMELINE
The timeline for the anticipated Syrian deployment of the S-300 remains hazy. Hewson said it could be "up and running within a minimum of a few weeks" once all components were in, and provided qualified Syrian personnel were available.
But the Russian defense ministry source said he knew of no Syrians who had already been trained by Moscow, and put the completion of the S-300 delivery at "six to 12 months from now".
Assuming Assad survives in power, such a lag could provide Israel with thwarting opportunities.
Hewson said the truck-towed S-300 would be physically hard to conceal. Its radar, if activated, would emit a distinctive signal that Israel could easily monitor, he added.
Diplomatic alternatives may not have been exhausted, though.
Yuval Steinitz, a senior member of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's cabinet, held on Thursday what political sources described as a discussion of the Syrian S-300 deal with Russian Ambassador Sergei Yakovlev.
In 2010, following Israeli appeals, Russia scrapped an S-300 sale to Iran. In what may have been a quid pro quo, the Israelis also agreed that year to sell Russia surveillance drones that would narrow its technological military gap with rival Georgia.
Russia now has other strategic interests - for example, investment in Israel's Mediterranean gas fields. Silvan Shalom, another Israeli cabinet minister, told Reuters that Russian President Vladimir Putin mentioned the gas fields while hosting Netanyahu in Sochi on May 14 for talks that focused on Syria.
But Zvi Magen, a former Israeli ambassador to Moscow, was skeptical that Israel could offer anything that would spur Putin to slacken his support for Assad. "There's too much at stake here for the Russians," he said.
He was alluding to the conflagration's wider geo-strategic dimensions - pitting a Russian preference to keep Syria under Assad's control to preserve Moscow's last significant toehold in the Middle East against a Western and Gulf Arab desire for the downfall of Assad to roll back Iranian influence in the region.
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Stability is actually decreased, and things are escalated. Imagine instead of Isreali planes shot down it's dead Russians delivering missiles that got caught in the middle of this. The Israeli's already warned repeatedly they WILL deal with the S-300's. If Russia decides to stand by their decision to deliver them to Syria after such warnings then they take their chances.
The Israeli's tend to do what they say they are going to do, usually within days of a statement. Like other's have said, I wouldn't want to be anywhere near a Syrian S-300 or any other Syrian SAM unit in the coming days.
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@kaktus, I think you have a good assessment there, it doesn't mean the S-300 system is a failure if it's destroyed, but to those less familiar with how these systems work it can be a PR nightmare for the companies involved with making these systems.
I am thinking the countdown timer for Israel to strike has already started.
Senior Israeli intelligence sources emphasized to debkafile Thursday May 30 that Syria had still not received the first consignment of Russian S-300 anti-missile batteries – contrary to Syrian President Bashar Assad’s claim.
Directly taunting Israel, Syrian president Bashar Assad said in an interview prerecorded for broadcast Thursday night, May 30, that the first batch of Russian S-300 anti-air missiles has arrived in Syria and a second consignment was on the way. The broadcast was scheduled to air simultaneously over Hizballah’s Al Manar and Syrian state television channels.
The Syrian ruler was responding to the quote from Israel’s National Security Adviser Yakov Amidror that the S-300 batteries have not been delivered yet and when they are, Israel will destroy them before they are operational.
Wednesday, May 29, debkafile reported the landing at Latakia airport of a large Russian transport carrying 60 tons of unidentified freight. Labeled by Moscow “humanitarian aid,” it may in fact have contained the first S-300 delivery to which Assad referred.
Continuing in the same vein, Assad said that not only would the Syrian army react to any further Israeli attacks, he “would not stand in the way of Syrian groups that want to fight for the liberation of the Golan.”
debkafile reported earlier Thursday.
Fresh Hizballah forces entered Syria early Thursday, May 30, hours after the United States called the presence of the Hizballah fighters from Lebanon in Syria “unacceptable” and “dangerous” and demanded their immediate withdrawal. Already fighting on three fronts – Damascus, Homs and al Qusayr - debkafile’s military sources report that the new increment is assigned a fourth. Iran’s Lebanese proxies will be heading south to take on the rebel stronghold of Deraa, capital of the Huran, where thet will be fighting within 30 kilometers of Israel’s Golan border.
Lookout posts report the incoming Hizballah units organizing their equipment and getting set to move.
The threats traded by Russia, Syria, Hizballah with Israel have reached a new pitch of stridency.
Israel’s National Secuirty Adviser Yakov Amidror was quoted Wednesday night as warning that if the Russian S-300 anti-air missiles are delivered to Syria, Israel will strike them and prevent their deployment for operational use.
Former Defense Minister Moshe Arens voiced his certainty that the Russians are aware Israel is capable of destroying the batteries.
debkafile’s military sources add: Moscow has made a point of stressing that the S-300s for Syria will arrive accompanied by Russian officers and advisers, in the belief that Israel will think twice before tangling with Moscow by attacking the missiles still in their crates and risking harm to Russian personnel. This eventuality came up in the tough conversation Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu had with Russian President Vladimir Putin in Sochi on May 14.
Syrian Foreign Minister Walid Moallem has meanwhile pitched in to warn that another Israeli strike against Syria would elicit an immediate Syrian response. He spoke to the Hizballah TV station Al Mayadin Wednesday night. In answer to a question, he said the Syrian response would be proportional to the Israeli attack.
In Helsinki, Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu reacted harshly to the European Union’s decision – spearheaded by Britain and France – to lift its arms embargo on the Syrian rebels: He made it clear that this decision had untied Moscow’s hands for supplying Bashar Assad with weapons banned by international treaties.
“Every decision has two sides. If one side lifts its restrictions, then the other side may no longer feel compelled to keep its previously adopted obligations,” Shoigu said Wednesday.
A special interview with President Assad is scheduled for simultaneous broadcast Thursday night by Hizballah’s Al-Manar and Syrian state television channels.
Going by the info above in the article, I would suspect that Israel will wait until the Russian techs are away from the system or it's handed over to the Syrian military, but before the S-300 is able to go online and active to take them out.
And who says you need to risk aircraft to do the job? Depending on where the systems are deployed and the ranges between the two countries, Israel could use MLRS or other artillery against them.
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I agree with your assessment of the S-300 and the variables involved in it's procurement marcos, but I think your forgetting that Israel has proven time and again that they have some pretty good ground based intelligence on it's neighbors. I also wouldn't throw out the idea that the U.S. could supply Satellite and other types of intel on the S-300's as well to aid in taking them out.
Like I said, time will tell. If the S-300's do get destroyed what will be the excuse for their lack of performance, I wonder.
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S-300 deployed in Syria would prevent Israel from conducting raids against arms transfers between Syria and the Hezbollah
I'm interested to see just how this action actually won't prevent Israel from conducting it's raids. I would hazard a guess that shortly after the S-300 sites are set up, that the Israeli's will make sure that those sites are no longer operating according to origional manufacturer specifications.
Time will tell though.
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Congratulations, my one buddy once told me that if I kept going back to look at something, then I must really want it. I've never regretted purchases based on that criteria. I'm sure you'll enjoy the increased immersion with the X52 :D
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To be honest, it would not have mattered if the Iraqi's had full Soviet T-72B's with composite armor that were capable of firing the missiles.
One reason is because the TPD-K1 daysight only has a magnification of 8x. Try seeing an M1 tank 3 to 5 km away to use the beam riding missile effectively with only an 8x daysight that's limited by weather conditions. Smoke, fog, rain, camouflaged smoke popping and maneuvering tanks, sandstorms, etc will all degrade the maximum range and performance.
And at night, the T-72 uses a 1K13-495 5.6x (8x ATGM) sight that's limited by available lighting and weather conditions because of it's far inferior night vision capability to the M1A1's 3x Wide field and 10x zoomed thermal and daylight sights.
M1's also used AN/VLQ-6 Missile Countermeasure Devices in all the conflicts going back to 1991 which would have hampered beam riding missiles as well.
It's not even a matchup if we compare the M1A2's Optical 12.5 and added 25x and 50x digital 2nd gen thermals into the equation.
Combined arms is a work in progress, but I'm liking the improvements I've seen recently. Some of our strategies have to be changed from real world conditions to compensate for how the AI works and how some systems are modeled in the sim. The closer to reality the better though. :D
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LOL @ jazjar's comment. It is neat with the multiple guided munitions, but I still like the 105mm gunned version better.
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Neat development.
I remember reading about the theory of cased telescoped ammunition in the early 90's, it's amazing when you consider how many times certain ammunition based system are considered obsolete or ineffective against modern armor, they come up with a new solution that makes them viable again.
This Canadian Minister of National Defence pdf file really helps explain the advantages of such ammunition. It's amazing for me to see it become a reality. I guess the future is now. :)
http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/caj/documents/vol_12/iss_2/CAJ_Vol12.2_11_e.pdf
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Here's a 32 min video from the local news helicopter and channel that was there when the tornado was heading toward Moore, for those not familiar with the size and speed of such storms this is probably the closest thing to seeing Godzilla heading your way.
When one is on the ground, this is the sort of warning we get here in the U.S.
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Family are okay from the area, they received warning and took shelter 20 minutes before.
Out my way in the Ohio Valley we have a 30% chance for tornadoes this afternoon, so we're keeping an eye on the sky, I have my radar set up and lightning detectors ready to warn neighbors.
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LOL, I thought the poor guy was having a bad day when he was hit by the bus.... But no, it got worse. :lol:
Hope he got better. :megalol:
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And if your in the F10 map view, you can always select a vehicle your interested in from the F10 map and hit F7, that will allow you to see the selected unit in action, and also get some info on the surrounding terrain better.
I believe to pilot the vehicles you have to hit Escape, and then select drive vehicle in the menu that pops up.
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I haven't used the feature for awile, but I think you can just jump into other aircraft if you lose your initial one. The battle will rage on as ground force commander. It just has to be an aircraft you have a module for to pilot though. Hopefully someone will help me out with more experience in that regard.
But I think you'll enjoy it JetlinerX, I used the quick mission creator and set all parameters to random.
Then I selected "Edit Mission" and on the left side selected "Battlefield Commanders"
Selected the box which says "Pilot can control Vehicles"
Then Select Ground Force CMDR, and select "1" for the red or blue forces you want to control.
Choose to pilot your aircraft or select Grnd Force Cmdr.
And your off!! You can use the F-10 map view to select your ground vehicles, make waypoints for them, set formations or select targets. Use your artillery units and set up fire zones, control your helicopters and set up kill zones, etc. Best way to learn is to jump in and play around. Also setting "Fog of War" is good for this as it forces you to have units that have eyes on the enemy forces to see them on the map for targeting.
Watch out for counter battery fire, make sure to move your MLRS and other artillery after firing as you'll soon see incoming from the AI or if enemy units have seen your forces. Move those AAA and Sams along with your tanks and IFV's to provide cover, use the terrain to your advantage.
Most importantly,just have Fun!! :D
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In single player, CA will allow you to maneuver your forces to attack the enemy.
You can now coordinate with your strike aircraft to soften up a target with strikes and then move your MBT's toward the recently struck forces with a follow on ground attack for instance. Or a heavy artillery barrage against a large and dangerous known enemy air defence unit, clearing the way for your aircraft to have less trouble attacking the targets in the surrounding area, and minimizing losses for your side.
In a way CA in singleplayer really adds to the strategy of the simulation because you can conduct the ground war on your own terms. And also you can still jump into one of the flyable aircraft if you have the module and fight while your ground forces maneuver where you want them to go.
Add to that, if you have a favorite ground vehicle, like for me it was the Gephard AAA unit, you can tool around and have fun engaging enemy aircraft if you want, or guide missiles from the T-80's and T-90's, TOW's from the Bradley's, etc. It's just fun, on different levels, just depends how deep you want to get into using the CA module. I've used CA since last July, it was worth it just for the ability to move my units where I wanted to.
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lol, actually I haven't been to the photos and videos for awile, thanks for pointing out there's some good photos there topol-m. Didn't realize you had the X-47B stuff covered already. :)
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Yea, carrier landing will be the next interesting milestone.
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Let me be the first to welcome our future robotic drone overlords. :lol: How long do you guys think before this thing decides to become self aware? :)
Nevertheless, a new record has been achieved, this is not the same kind of drone like the Predators most are now familiar with.
Background on the X-47B program:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Grumman_X-47B
Video's of the catapult launch from various angles:
Landing:
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To answer your question, it would be more realistic if you had the compute firing solution on in my opinion.
Why?
Well it would be simulating the work a normal tank or IFV crew do to find range to a particular target (Usually in the form of firing the laser range finder), and then have that range data transferred to the computers in the vehicle to have a more accurate firing solution.
In the M1A2 for instance, the gunner would put his reticle on the target, fire the laser rangefinder, and that data goes to the M1's fire control computer, the computer knows the ballistics of the particular round being fired, the barometric pressure, and even the crosswind to move the gun so that the gunner only has to put the reticle on the target, and fire. This is all done in as little as two or 3 seconds if a round is in the breech.
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Invader, all the launchers are set to Average, the lowest AI setting. They hit at least 85% of incoming ALARMs and Mavericks.
Thanks for that Bahger, wow! I'd say that success rate against mavericks and ALARM's is a little too optimistic for the lowest AI level. The air defense used to do that if you had them set on Excellent in the earlier game versions.
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I feel the same as MonnieRock, I've used the mods available and some edits to get my own Ultra high settings for A-10 since version 1.0.9, but it would be nice to have a simple selector button to enable settings for higher end machines.
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Keep your origional mission, check to see if your SA-19 site is set to Excellent AI. Now try backing the AI down one notch. If that doesn't work, back it down another and see the results. Same with the Tunguska's, back them off one notch from the highest AI setting, and I think you'll find they aren't as capable of intercepting mavericks and other small missiles.
I'd be interested to hear your results using the above info. Hope it helps without having to redo all your scenarios.
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I thought it was interesting, thanks for sharing that Griffin.
Military and Aviation News Thread (NO DISCUSSION)
in Military and Aviation
Posted
LOL, nice one marcos. Yea, I had to come up with some kind of solution without using manned aircraft as per the scenario so I used the LORA system as an example.
Using Google Maps, I think you could move parts of the Israeli army to the border and help ensure a safe operations area at the border closest to the known position of the S-300 and engage if it's in range. Going by the given ranges, I can stay inside Israel without going into Lebanon and engage air defense sites in southern Syria into the region of Homs, perhaps with a lightened payload the Hamah area. This would force the S-300 sites to be positioned far enough away to prevent them from engaging aircraft over Israel itself, or risk detection and destruction from Lora.
Looking at the brochure from the maker's of LORA: http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/FILES/6/39426.pdf
It's also capable of being launched from ship, so that opens up new possibilities for taking out the deeper SAM threats in Syria without air strikes.
Looking at the map:
Israel has some options of dealing with the expected threat, that we know of at least.