Kaktus29

@konrad.. the AI wingman and other AI flights are too cowardly..to slow to respond, no initiative .. i remember in F-15 Jane's or whatever it was called, i had 2 flight with 4 planes each under my command.. and when i said attack ground targets at airfield everybody organized into attack and all dropped their bombs.. 5-7 minutes later the whole airfield was on fire.. trying to do it here, it would seem i have to specify what the AI pilot should eat for breakfast before pressing the pickle button)) AI is way to rigid to be effective.. sometimes a better solution would be if i could jump from one plane into another and take control and just bomb the targets myself after i release all ammunition with my original plane.. i guess its okay if AI is slow, ..it forces us to play MP and play against all human opponents which makes it much more fun, harder and better experience..

i'm not blaming ED here.. i admit its hard.. it looks its actually quite impossible to simulate even the modest AI.. all we can do is script the AI with (what if, if this then this, if that than this happens while the other not etc..) the moment we have AI in PC is a moment the whole computer world will be transformed and revolutionize many things.. i can see many "tutors" out there, teaching children how to do math, physics, biology etc.. AI will change many things.. but to develop such AI i think its too much to expect for now.. and certainly not from any computer simulation developer.. i would expect DARPA or joint EU+Japan+US+Russia effort to get any breakthrough in that field..

hehe..lol with the stupid ai.. i had a case where i put su-30 with 1500L kab bomb, and the dude went kamikaze into the ground)) why? who knows, maybe the grass offended him personally and took it up to himself to clear his family name and kill the grass.. there are many such stupid thing AI does.. i still don't understand why can't the plane unload all the bombs in the bombing line is perfect.. imagine a column of 30 tanks.in a STRAIGHT LINE.. the plane can easily launch all 4-8-12 bombs (whatever the loudout) and destroy most of the enemy in the shortest time possible.. and what does he do? bomb 1 away.. destroys 1 target.. then circling around, wasting time, another bomb away-another target destroyed. same with rocket attacks.. i put 8 rocket pods on Su-25 to see will he use the many rockets he has to strafe at least 20% of the column? ..nope, nothing, he fired into 1 target.. then circles for another etc.. and the targets were soft-truck, not abrams or anything rock-hard that would excuse such an approach of su-25.. same goes for bombing airfield.. i have noticed HAS-hardened aircraft shelters are impossible to destroy.. no matter what bomb you use, how many bombs.. nothing.. this this is indestructible.. again, when i order a flight of 4 to target lets say 16 targets in airfield.. one would assume a more intelligent approach than 1 fighter drops 1 bomb while 3 of his wingman fly in formation wasting time.. at this rate it will take 4 hours to drop the 16 bombs and destroy the 16 targets..

yes, but even in chess with all available info the "AI" still brute calculations to get the best possible move..and that is knowing where ALL the enemy pawns and figures are.. imagine now NOT knowing this.. then what? Doing recon? yup, sounds nice.. Recon gets shot.. know what? ..send another until you run out of recon planes?.. change tactics.. why, how.. when.. it is for this reason and the one you mentioned saying how from a small unit-lets say a single tank-to think smart, to be able to attack if it is confronted with APC with no anti-tank abilities even if outnumbered 10 to 1 it is wise for the tank to progress and destroy..but if facing 5 MBT it stops and retreats if pursuit by the enemy.. then sending this info to superiors back in the command chain to make proper calculation regarding this situation-is more force needed there, maybe its not important location,better stuff happening elsewhere etc.. so, there is soooo much more calculations, muuuch more than chess, for the precise reason that the "terrain" is bigger, the "figures" are not known-fog of war, .. there is nothing wrong with brute calculations.. strategy isn't complicated, its 1+1 actually.. if you are loosing the war then yes, strategy or should i say playing poker becomes very important in an effort to create an illusion of being either weak or super strong in order to implement some mega-encirclement or other kind of punch in the nutsack manoeuvre .. but as we know, there is no way to do a simple strategy thinking god forbid anything more complex on our pc's.. ask yourself.. with all the bugs in the games.. do you think this would run smoothly or even RUN ? )) we are very very faaaar away for any sensible dynamic campaign.. that is AI dynamic campaign.. for a human running this show..yes, i would be open for this.. if ED can create some kind of interface where people can basically run the whole show (recon, C&C, naval ops, sending sorties, battle damage control, ) ..then it would be interesting..but again, for this to be enjoyable the game is not big enough-i mean it doesn't support enough people nor does it support it over a longer period of time.. Wars usually don't last 1 hour, or 2 hours..but at least 3-5 days -24 hours per day .. we cannot save a "template" to run it at next time, we can't continuously run it without crashing for so long so.. its a dream so far.. nice dream but still a dream ..

it seems very close and easy to do a Dynamic campaign..yet so hard.. i think the biggest problem is dealing with 3D world simulation that is hard to determine damage on the opponent when commencing in battle.. think of it this way.. simulating chess strategy is easy for the computer.. the "terrain" is known-8*8 squares black and white.. rules of how certain figures move is also known-knight,rook, queen... when all is known and definable then computer can imploy AI to calculate the best possible move regarding the present situation-whatever that may be.. thats why strategy games have no problem dealing with so called "dynamic campaigns" while simulations in 3 D have big problems and issues.. for they need to simulate soo many objects, moving, then being destroyed, then translating this info,data into a meaningful "rook,queen,knight,pawn" -move on the chessboard(terrain-to understand does this mean its harder to defend, easier to defend, is it better to attack, do a surprise attack, what are the probabilities of successful attack, how much force do i still have, how much does the enemy have..and then calculate what is the best move considering the data available.. now this is one tough computation right there.. 8x8 field is huuuge mathematically speaking, but since we have only 32 pieces of figures there its still no problem with the computer of today to calculate strategy or at least "efficiency" in the next move .. Today only super-computers employed by the military probably do such simulations of military importance to see how much force would be needed to be deployed in order to attack successfully and prepare for contingency in case of A, B, C, etc etc.. for simple PC users.. there is no real Dynamic campaign i think.. they could to a bubble mechanism that other have employed to give you a "feeling" of DC around you and that would affect your bubble to a point-if your side is loosing outside the bubble then this will sooner or later be evident inside your bubble.. i mean if you loose access to your airfield than i guess that airfield is out of range and in enemy hands .. maybe one day.. i dream.. maybe, 2030 or smth )) we will have true genuine Dynamic campaign..

to those saying F-22 this or that.. yes, but the study shows IF F-22 is fighting his own equal (which is the premise of BVR of the study) then BVR is a fluke, it will not work.. the enemy will detect being painted, evade the missile, same with F-22..and all ending up in dogfight.. The study was about is BVR a reality IF you are dealing with same tech generation planes.. i mean, F-22 doesn't really need BVR so far, he can kill you off with Aim-9L.. so, this study is about BVR that was promising "duking it out with missiles long range and ending the enemy in that way" ..which is of course by data provided so far a very big whoop of nothing.. I think the F-22 is a proof that BVR doesn't work.. the reason stealth was implemented was for precise this reason..because BVR doesn't work.. the stealth is the component that negates SA and response from the enemy and thus making so called BVR work.. otherwise it does not. it is incredible seeing how much money on missile development was spend regardless of real data showing its all BS )) and i don't mean -black shark))

all that you wrote makes no sense in the challenge russians gave for F-22.. and russians were challenging it with Su-37 back in 2000 or so.. the one who refused were US not Russians.. you speak pilots lie to sale their products.. well, if the pilot is ready to have a mock up in front of audiences i say he knows his plane. but you know your charts and claim f-15 is better dogfighter than su-27 because you know chart) again.. why don't we see one clip of f-15 outturning the sukhoi in usa? now that US has the ability to train against sukhois.. something you even admit is true.. you wrote the fact that sukhois in usa is nothing important..its just sukhoi instead of f-15 flying with sukhoi coloured scheme)) no, its a big deal, its something that can actually give you the answer who would win and out turn who in dogfight.. and since no videos are out there. i will assume its the sukhoi kicking ass.. look, your gestapo ways are really annoying man, if you don't agree with someone's statement you don't need to PROVE them wrong. you can say in civilised manner:this are the reasons i believe this is not so, and i believe this is so.. but you just ..i don't know man, you are a moderator dude, relax, give people the ability to have their own opinion and defend their opinion.. this is something you do not allow..its very gestapo approach man.. not cool.. i wrote what I believe happened and which version of fact i choose to believe .. you can write yours.. but you cannot deny me what i wrote. i am not doing the same to you.. if you believe, seriously.. that since Su-27 came to US(the one bought by US) were not used in serious combat mock up battles with F-15.. and that from all this mock ups not even 1 video is posted on youtube.. and that this is because F-15 is kicking sukhois ass..than this is your belief.. i accept it, i do not agree with it, but accept it.. i have a different approach of how to understand this things.. and we say goodbye and write something else.. this is how civilised people talk and write.. i hope to god you don't ban me now.. you are quite the character GG ..quite the character.. )lol

@marcos.. yes, your right.. i have read allot about chech scientis who developed during USSR and after it fell many passive systems to detect VLO's.. and IRST i always though would be great addition to ground stations spread into a network across the nation but always though that there is diminished result because its on the ground where air is more filthy and heavy with pollution particles.. i've read russia is proposing a new ground based detection system that will be based on allot of what you wrote.. to be totally passive and use many different ways and channels detecting stuff.. i wonder if the sound will be one of them.. i know sound is lagging.. like in breaking the speed barrier.. but that could be calculated in the equation.. so you know its lagging, you know that means the plane is position minus the lagging factor equals the real position.. and than fire a missile with infra-optical combined seeker warhead in general area..maybe fire even 2,3 to cover more space.it depends on how closely can you isolate the contact..if this is less than 2-5 km2 1 missile can cover this with advanced optic-IR seeker heads.. this things have the eyes of an eagle..can spot a bird 10 km away,this was from an israeli optical seeker head..don't remember the missile. was it paytheon or smth?..

@sobek..yeah i read about those dishes in Britain during the 2WW..and yes, they could get quite good info of the enemy, even range.. the problem was it was all delayed... thats why its useless to use this as interceptor system-as in intercepting incoming planes that have yet to breach your airspace..where i propose a different system where you do exactly that.. planes flying in your airspace well within the network of thousands of listening arrays doing their million per second match crunching equation and detecting the position of planes.. i'm not saying its not complicated, this is science of sound..so far no serious science or investment has gone into it..it has when it comes to underwater sonar systems.. but not so much for the air.. i just liked the idea because all this 5gens will be breaking the sound barrier ALL the freakin time)) it is such a waste of not doing something with that info like that..

@GG ))) lol.. you said you can't escape the control zone? )) well, SU27 did.. escaped easily.. look, this story is not fishy, it is politically incorrect to state it, i do understand.. that is why they took the mock battle to the SEA and not above the airfield to potentially embarrass themselves and their nation.. US bought 2 Su-27 from Ukraine in what was it? 2009.. ? .. Trust me, if F-15 can outmaneuver the Sukhoi this would be on youtube all over the place.. yet it is not.. ) i rest me case.. give an F-15 to the russians and they will gladly comply and show the capabilities of F-15 in close dogfight.. Su27 is a superior aerodynamic design, i'm not talking electronics, radar, the first gen of F-15 was much superior than Su-27..but in dogfights not a chance.. and this is understandable, the sukhoi was built to defeat the f-15 in dogfight...while f-15 was built to gain energy and launch ordnance from height and position of SA and power.. Are you going to say that Sukhoi doesn't hold the record for fastest climb, and other 27 world records as well--the very records F-15 broke before the arrival of Su27?.. aaaa, political correctness.. i understand.. Americans were never able to admit defeat, when they did mock up in india with Su-30 same story.. lame excuses.. "but hei, we didn't have AWACS-so didn't the indians as well, but we couldn't use amraam.. of course, this could go on and on.. -but we were forbidden to use tomahawk missiles.. look, a mock up is a mock up. deal with it.. i strongly accept the words of russian pilots that this was the case of what happened, and usa pilots of course cannot accept it-its as i say politically incorrect thing to do so.. just ask yourself.. why no mock up battles of F-15 and Sukhoi now that US owns 2 Su-27? )) i know the answer you refuse to believe and accept) ..

@Hajduk ..i agree.. actually the only mock combat that took between Su-27 and F-15 was in 1992 when Russians visited US.. they did the mock up and no way, F-15 lost clearly.. there was no way F-15 could keep up with Su-27.. the mock up was set in this fashion: F-15 in front of Su-27 with one mission to break the "lock" that Su had..that is to move away from Su-27 nose.. and then they repeated the thing vice versa with Su-27 ahead of F-15 .. in both cases Su-27 had no problem keeping up the F-15 in lock and running away from him in vice versa position.. here is the testimony of the Russians where they stated how the American pilots were surprised and also exhilarated of the awesome maneuverability of Su-27.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlQjaahjCXo&list=PL0MbdgzoObTYRn9ocofWJ7nrS32nVDNA8&index=67 please do not say Russian pilots lied about this.. it would make no sense.. same as when they asked the americans in 1997 to do dogfight with Su-37 vs. the Raptor for the spectators ..and the answer was amiss .. ))

radar? because its not passive.. you would alert your position to the enemy.. you do understand the difference in active and passive systems.. IRST is good but again you will not detect F-22 unless you are close..also the pollution of air is at high concentration at the ground meaning IRST ground based is wasteful as it wouldn't be best effective..but if you put it on the plane you are putting the plane crew in danger.. you say it would not work in practice? why? .. i would like some more elaborate arguments than just saying.. naaah, it wouldn't work.. why?.. This system is for detecting 5gens screaming across the skies and putting them down.. IRST cannot come close to this.. unless you make IRST drone that is very cheap, also flies very high, and is very stealthy.. meaning you get yourself a much more expensive proposition for my sound stuff theory.. i know what i propose is hard, i just don't know why.. it has to be with either the math behind the algorithms in detecting and understanding the triangulation..is it that? or is it the case it would be expensive? ..i mean, it has to be a stupid idea since nobody has tried it before and i can't be the genius who thought of this first..so, i just want to find the plot holes in this.. and if you could be please so kind to help me out and not just say -naaaah, its pointless.. ))

by sound? ..in this situation the plane is invading your airspace..and if you put lots of sound detectors across the nation and since sonic boom is heard (maybe not by human ear when plane is at 60.000 feet, but by device sensitive enough yes,most likely..) .. and triangulate the origin to give you approximation of the location of fighter? i know this is how they used to locate incoming bombers in 2WW in the very beggining but found radar to be faster, more accurate also practical since you get to intercept the bombers where any sound detection is only good when the plane is actually above you and crossing across the devices network .. but with today's modern devices could this be a potential one more element to be careful in designing the 5gen fighter..one that cannot be resolved because it goes against the other 5gen requirement -supercruise-meaning most of the time the jet will go supersonic thus detectable by sound network?.. just putting it out there..don't kill me, just give me good rebuttal why this wouldn't work and why it could.. one problem i see is its mostly defensive (in the case it works) ..this network is land based in your country so you can't use it for invading into enemy airspace.. second problem is, it could be potentially jammed by all kind of sound jammers altough it would be very technologically difficult to implement this jammer all across the targeted nation.. why it would work? Triangulation is proven, and works, even the sound one not just the radio one.. it would be cheaper than radar, all you need is small devices to detect sound and put it in sound -neutral places .. like in the middle of the field etc.. but with processer power it could filther out the local residual sound so it wouldn't be too much problem focusing on the low thump of the sonic boom happening somewhere 60.000 feet above.. then all this info goes to C&C where it is combined with thousands of other sound devices to create a firing solution and boom if it works there is one hell of a passive way to bring 5gen down cheaply and swiftly.. also it would be 100 % passive system that would feed firing solutions to all kind of systems-from AD systems to CAP's .. it would make 3gens fighters useful as a air firing platform ..

@marcos... you are quite correct.. so far evidence is showing that there is no such thing as BVR .. unless you are fighting Mig's without RWR or working radar and in staggering numerical superiority plus AWACS support to make the contact even possible.. in all fights Migs were fighting they were without AWACS support while the opponent had it.. It would seem AWACS was done for precise reason to be a "counting machine" of friendly planes.. and track them.. so everything that was not "accounted for" was designed as if not enemy than at least a bogey.. if you don't have this AWACS than its pretty much pipe dream doing any BVR except in DCS and other military theory academies where they decide to spend insane amount of money in this or that doctrine... Which is why in the future AWACS will be under heavy attack from VLRAAM .. -very long range anti-air missiles .. Russian, european designers already doing them, i bet usa doing the same.. of course this missiles are worthless to hunt agile fighters..but AWACS fur sure dead man walking.. so, what happens when you loose your excell spreadsheet in the skies that keeps track of ally sorties and planes? ..chaos pretty much.. of course before you go all over me-i am writting in a situation you are dealing with equal opponent,meaning they have RWR that detect when you paint them with radar and vice versa of course.. but if you are running on the premise BVR is possible -since enemy will never be able to detect our radar painting them, nor able to detect missile launch, nor able to detect being hit, etc etc.. well, on that premise you don't even need BVR, you need to come near the enemy and shoot him with a hand gun.. but we are not talking about that.. but a major air war with equal size and tech enemy.. and in this condition and situation BVR does not work..proven by this gentleman from USAF .. who collected the info from all encounters and debunks most BVR hits on the basis i described above.. it is kinda annoying though for us armchair pilots.. we are basically playing theory, we are in a simulation of theory, not reality.. for instance to simulate train, or civilian airplanes that can be done and can really be called simulating this or that.. here, we military simulations are merely simulating THEORY of what various institutes THINK would happen in real life.. ))) would love some civilian DCS though.. i think there is even bigger market for that.. since not all arm chair pilots are military buffs.. i would enjoy a Tupolov MS-204-300 flight from high-fidelity Moscow ---> Vladivostok )) .. flying across Russia, landscape, clouds and high fidelity DCS russian civ plane.. they can do something different than other civ sims and put "passengers" in the seats and after you reach cruise speed, altitude you can jump in passenger seat and enjoy the flight as a passenger, watch from the window, watch a movie, whatever..maybe even hit on a flight attendent and get arrested after you get angry cuz she doesn't respond to your advances )) lol.. and then swithc back to pilot to make urgent landing in Sverdlovsk to get the crazy passenger off the plane escorted by police for disturbing the flight.. )) what do you think..would you like this? .. man, ..and flying to Crimea-Sevastopol..yes.. i mean, Simferopol.. actually i would like to be able to walk on foot from Moscow airport and rent-a-car and go for a ride in Moscow.. damm, DCS are you listening? ))) lol... p.s.: i know i know, its impossible to do this.. but,it doesn't change the fact how much i would like this to happen in sim one day.. i know i can do much of this in real life-apart from being the pilot though.. )) to get your imagination working better with what i wrote)) ..

..about BVR being maybe beyond reach to be real and effective)) interesting take.. it would seem its like hunting a dream.. so close yet so far away.. data proves one thing.. its a pipe dream.. http://pogoarchives.org/labyrinth/11/09.pdf especially because of IFF problems its almost impossible to fight BVR with any proficiency that is needed .. also fighting an enemy with same level of technology makes BVR almost useless and only overwhelming numbers can tilt the game for one side or the other.. was surprised by the lack of radar guided kills.. IR rules so far.. maybe optical will be future..but still BVR is as it seems out of reach..

Froggie in action... man this thing can take a beating and still work.. sadly most of the time it was used during the most important time Russia was fighting Islamic fundamentalist they were not equipped with any of the important imaging systems ... Su-25 has one flaw,it was meant to be used as CAS in case of serious war when speed meant life.. this thing is too fast for CAS..unless you have the latest radar system and optic system its just too stressful for the pilot to find the target, unload the weapons and be on the lookout for enemy firing at him.. For me, this is the CAS plane you take IF your side does not have 100% air superiority..if it does have it, A-10 is better it can loiter and do damage.. but you need air dominance to make it work.. What i do hate is.. the airbrakes.. do they work? i mean, is it really so hard to slow this thing down? everytime i use airbrakes as i attack an enemy position i see my speed skyrocket (yes, i am in a 10-30 degrees dive but still) this thing just goes 600,700 than starts to shake as i approach 800 .. how in the hell am i supposed to be mindful of enemy firing at me, finding the enemy and lase it, mess with my TRIM, wish against wishes to slow the plane down, thinking if the Lase is overheating, trying to listen what my wingman is doing and staying alive.. but still love the Su-25.. the speed makes it phenomenal.. i hate it and love it..

its true, i don't think US scientist are stupid, actually no scientist is stupid.. they are just people that go through a college, graduate in certain subject and that is that.. german, russian, chinese, american it makes no difference.. the difference part comes in how much resources are available to him.. for instance, do you think brazilian engineer does no know how radar works? how its deflected, this science is beyond the brazilian brain?.. no, of course not, but if there is no billion of dollars waiting to be used by him and his compatriots than yes, there will be no such products in Brazil.. Which brings me to another point.. US has a problem not in not having resources,money to spend on military projects, but in actually having them.. you see, when you have pretty much unlimited supply of money you are more or less forced to go into extreme not yet tested products because you can afford it..even if it doesn't work-hei we have money we will make it work-mentality is dangerous as it makes progress harder.. its jumping the gun mentality.. doing something before its time.. JSF was being developed already in 1990... when F-15 was going strong and there was no need whatsoever to do this.. so all this money spent on it even though the technology of 1990 was faaar behind what it should be to implement the project.. if they waited until 2005 and do the work.. by today we might be witnessing a no-problem JSF that is better in all aspects than this what we have now..another TOO big to Jail, FAIL, CUT, etc.. project.. This phenomena was recorded in human studies.. if you give a man unlimited resources to do the simplies task he will cock it up.. if you give the same man very limited resources he will be very efficient.. same is with food that you eat..eating only what is needed up to a calorie accurate will make your metabolism work much more efficiently and your muscles will be much stronger pound-per-pound than over-eating and thus adding fat with the muscle that comes from working out.. US has a curse..its called -MIC- .. and they are not in efficiency business ..

people, look i listened to official russian developers -can't find the link-they know about the blades needed to be hidden.. my god how thick do you think russian scientist are? ..but there is no point in making hidden engine IF you didn't finish developing the engine.. get it..? if they do the air-frame and especially the engine intakes stealthy and then the engine comes out and dimensions don't fit..now what? .so they don't bother with stealth intakes right now, but more on software,radar, 5gen avionics and RWR, LPI, and air-frame testing to see what works better.. when they polish all this the only puzzle will be what will the 5gen engine dimensions be? and then according to this info redesign the intakes.. Russians are not making a mistake like the americans when they designed JSF with certain dimensions and put it into production while still in testing..and now horribly trying to avert disaster.. one step at a time is better than 100 steps in one swing.. So far, everything looks amazing and splendid.. in 2016-18 i think the first production could start(even though Russians are claiming 2015 i think later is wiser and better,no need to rush it and do a JSF on yourself..) again, look at the prototype of SU-27 back in the 70-80s.. it was weird.. and then the final product?.wow total aerodynamic porn.. up to now there is no plane more aerodynamically CORRECT than Su-27..

hehe.. the Su-34 i agree is amazing machine.. and the lavatory? ..get out of here.. its great... its the only plane that allows you to actually make a "dump" on an enemy )) ..

economics is very easy to understand..if you don't know something ask i will explain.. i oblige.. US has their USD-Dollar as the worlds reserve..it is used for buying commodities like oil, gas, international financial transactions.. meaning whatever amount of USD is printed by USA it is literally transported to the nations using the dollar in their economies.. so inflation will be higher in Russia(which sells lots of oil,gas, China for it sells lots of products to EU, Latin nations).. so .. i believe the facepalm is yours to take sir.. enjoy it..

the alien discussion)) love it).. yeah,i also agree with some commentators that any aliens advanced enough of interstellar travel are advanced enough not only to kill us "in our sleep" but also advanced enough that they can get whatever supplies they need from the moon, mars and other planets which are in the billions and billions.. remember chemistry is pretty much playground for an advanced civilisation.. getting energy is easy once you are advanced .. and no, Earth is not some special planet that has some material that cannot be found even in our solar system.. you do have to combine the molecules and atoms in such a way to get the proper "material" ..as i said, being advanced enough to interstellar travel your ass it means no need to attack savages living on planet Earth and busy killing themselves .. i always enjoyed the stupid movie plots though.. and how brave US marines always kick this aliens ass)) man, to travel from another star system only to be defeated by usa marines)) mann, this alien inteligence service sucks.. must be getting info from CIA)) About F-35..yes, it is a disaster,..only because of the price.. look, we are talking economy here..its like.. killing your enemy but you ended up loosing your arm,legs, ability to talk, and taste food.. this should be considered a failed project because of that.. a real military planners plan in such a way that resources are properly used(not to bankrupt a nation!) .. If all the software and sensors of F-35 are transferred into a better designed F-16 design (which would cost considerably less) you already get a winner.. F-22 is used only at the start of the operation when air supremacy is needed in the air.. F-16(improved) would be used for the rest.. when i say f-16 i don't mean the same f-16 that exists now,but totally redesigned minus the repeat of jsf disaster).. the whole project should cost 50 billion USD not 400 bn! .. this is a clear case of "gimme money" from the Lockheed corporation .. Remember the germans, they made very good tanks, Tiger, Panther.. this beasts could destroy anything on the battlefield.. but in war simplicity is important, speed, reliability, and it has to be cheap or at least affordable .. this JSF is not.. maybe for US that think it can print any ammount of fake dollars and get away with it yes, its no big deal to pay 140 million for 1 plane, at this logic it could cost 5 bn who cares.. but for countries that don't have that ability to print money out of thin air (australia, canada, italy etc..) this plane is looking more and more as a clusterfu*k of epic proportions.. basically its a project to bind all nations who buy this into US orbit.. because without F-22 this nations will not be able to do horse jack sh*t on the battlefield.. And we all know F-22 is OFF the MARKET )) .. Thats why the "allies" are getting worried..they see the jig ..

@GG .. so there is no way to FEED the info of the data-link target into the close-up guy's missile.. wtf) why is it so hard..or indeed impossible? .. just ram that data link into your missile, fire it, and off you go) .. why the hell does the missile have to jeopardize my position.. )) i mean, if you say it can't be done thats one thing..but is it impossible..like from technical point of view.. like, we have scientist etc.. why can't they design a missile to be able to get the FEED of the data-link so it doesn't alarm the enemy of the launcher's position.. i mean to a degree this must be happening with raptor since they will act in similar way as i described .. one illuminated the other hunts.. as an extra precaution of getting detected..so in case of detection the far-away guy is safe cuz of distance while launcher remains safe cuz he is not seen..

@sierra99 ..what i meant was decline in professionalism in the military as generals who oversee this projects, or many generals in pentagon overseeing this project.. they have allot of power and sway but use it to prolong the corruption.. this is a sign of a decline in professionalism.. i didn't mean decline of professionalism of some regular soldier..usually the soldiers remain the most stable force in the army.. the higher the expensiveness ladder you go the more corruption one usually finds.. With F-35 we have a situation of a doctor getting millions of dollars to see you come to him every time.. in such a situation i think the poor patient is sadly be continue to come to the doctor for its in doctors best interest to see his favourite patient again and again.. i mean can you imagine.. 1 Trillion dollars.. jesus christ.. one would think US is developing 10th generation fighter..

tnx for the answers.. yeah i knew about the f-22, even mig-31 had it back in those USSR times, it was meant to supplement the Su-27 groups ahead of him..and guide them.. but i didn't notice any possibility of SU27-Su27 connection or F-16-F-16 connection.. and wondered why? is it so hard or what? .. GG explanation is good one.. although i don't understand how could under your scenario the "close guy who launches the missile through data-link" show up on the RWR of the targeted plane..? If the targeted plane is targeted by the far-away guy shouldn't his RWR show up only him.. and when the missile from the close-up guy fires away that missile should be guided by the radar beam of the far away guy.. ? basically its all about codes then? but maybe its like really complicated to do this codes stuff and its not practical for the 3-4 gen fighters and that's why nobody did it.. ? For instance F-14 or Mig-31 have good radars and good tracking, they could if sending through datalinks the enemy position do allot of damage, especially in the Su situation where SARH makes you a "slave" to the slaving etc.. i'm talking about in-game stuff..in today's reality with 5gen its all much more hi-tech..so forget about this...just about in-game tech tactics.. what do you think? would it be a killer tactic or? .. why wouldn't it work?GG mentioned only in the case of flanking attack would it work but not head-on attack? i guess if one attacks 2vs2 it doesn't work since you are still at deficit of 1 illuminant at the "backstage" .. but if you have numerical advantage 3 vs. 2 wouldn't this tactic be better than 3 flying line astern formation vs. 2 flying similar formation? in this case 2 fighters is the illuminant(who target 2 enemies and send datalink solutions to 1 launcher platform at the "frontlines") and safely positioned in the back, while 1 guy is in the front free to do max. engaged defensive maneuvers while still lobbing missiles who will be guided to the target against 2 enemies who are at big disadvantage in this position?

also, i like that russian front wheel "dust catcher" )) lol.. i call it that way, don't know what is the official name of that "metallic net" that is designed to cheaply catch the dust from the ground and prevent most of it going into the intakes.. i like the simplicity of the engineers that have done this.. if this would be in hands of usa engineers i can already see 10 million USD research and in the end it would be so complicated it would need its own CPU units and GPU for some reason.. jk though, but not too far from reality.. sometimes doing things simple is the hardest thing to do.. the concept KISS is very hard to follow even though it should be the easiest.. and for that i like russian engineering the best.. the things they can do with that small budget its like magic plus elastic combined into awesome..