LastRifleRound
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Posts posted by LastRifleRound
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It definitely doesn't work right, because you can trick the system into functioning properly by TMS up, DMS down to get TGP as SOI again, then use TMS right for all other designations. Only problem is if you slew in point track over something you don't want and linger too long it'll hand off every time you stop slewing, when it should really wait for another TMS up or right. This will force you to DMS back to WPN and TMS down to break the lock.
The way it most likely works in real life is TMS up once to point track and hand off. TMS up again will switch to WPN. Slewing in point track won't hand off until TMS right is used. Subsequent TMS up once in point track switch to WPN. That's how the other two modes work, how the real manual describes it, and makes the most sense. Preponderance of evidence is making this look alot like an FA18 ATFLIR offset cursor situation.
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What is the practical affect of the INS changes for the F16 going to be? What will the player notice? Are there any behaviors they should change?
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5 hours ago, modsat said:
Hi there
Quick background (can be skipped): Some 15-20 years ago I got Falcon 4 Allied Force and spent a summer climbing the learning curve. I had an absolute blast flying it. I could never get multiplayer to work, but the dynamic mission manager kept me happy and busy flying sorties. Eventually life got in the way and I stopped flying. Then 6-7 years ago I got a HTC VIVE and decided to take a look at DCS. I was impressed but also overwhelmed. I had to learn a new aircraft (F/A-18) since there was no F-16, and I somewhat stubbed my toes on the carrier landings and the lack of solo content. It felt lonely learning to fly by myself and the low resolution of the VIVE made viewing the cockpit a strained experience. I ended up giving up on the project and took up sim racing. I've been iRacing for years now having a blast. I recently upgraded my PC and bought a Pimax Crystal, and I was blown away by the fidelity. I decided to give DCS another go. I knew that the F-16 had arrived and that there is even a dynamic campaign module in the works. So I gave it a go and holy moly: DCS looks so awesome with high settings in the crystal. Blasting 'Highway to the dangerzone' in burner at takeoff has never been sweeter
. I'm re-learning the systems one by one and I'm currently reading through Chucks guide while watching tutorials on specific topics on youtube and practising different things in the jet. I'm planing on taking it online and finding someone to fly with, but I think I need to up my skills first. Right now I'm a charity case that need instructions for everything.
Now here is the problem (can also be skipped tbh): I feel like I'm learning the systems fine, but I'm really struggling with two things: my basic flight technique and my SA during A-G. I'm not able to locate targets. As an example I have tried the F-16 mission 'Home on the range' many times. I do not understand how to interpret the JTAC directions (he says: PA39357608 -- what does that mean?). I am not able to spot any smoke/WP that the briefing say will be deployed. I've flown the mission quite a few times now, so I know where the targets are, but I am not able to understand which targets (target is a convoy) to engage. I just bomb targets of opportunity. It's frustrating cause I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong or how to practice getting better at it effectively.
The actual questions:
Are there any guides on how to actually fly the jet properly outside of combat? I can practise level turns, but I'm really missing some instructions fx regarding best parameters and how to best control a level turn (lots of throttle or lots of stick? etc.).
Are there any guides or do you have any tips for how to get better at understanding directions and locating targets when doing ground support? Right now I need a steerpoint on the bad guys to find them
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In sim racing coaching is a very normal thing (I guess because it is a very competitive discipline). Is there anything similar in DCS? Any respected community members that charge to give newbies some one on one teaching time? I feel like I could remove a lot of my frustrations with an hour or two of concentrated help from a skilled flyer. Obviously I would not expect anyone to just donate their time to teach a random forum member, so I am wondering if this is a service on offer anywhere?
Sorry for the long post.
Kind regards
I gotcha, keeping up with the update pace can be tough, but some of the systems this stuff is based around have been around for over a decade, including the JTAC. I recommend looking up some of the A10 videos on youtube of people dealing with the JTAC.
The code the guy gave you are coordinates in MGRS format. If you go on youtube and search "DCS Viper MGRS" you'll get a useful tutorial on that.
However, if you watch some of the videos on how to work with the JTAC, you'll see DCS is assuming some knowledge from you on how to work with JTAC you probably just don't have yet, namely that if you did a few more radio calls, you'd tell them you were inbound, and they would then mark the target with smoke, and the mission triggers would likely work at that point and you'd be able to proceed.
As far as sighting, I struggle with that, too. There is an option in labels to have, instead of labels which kill immersion, dots to be superimposed over all items. Visual acuity in DCS is MUCH WORSE than in real life, and ED knows it, but there just aren't many good options for it right now with the current tech, so this method is provided as a stop-gap until the engine is further refined. Don't be ashamed to use it, it's meant to be used and it's not cheating.
There's plenty of coaching available, I had a brief time with an online squadron. I can't remember their name, but they were very cool guys and life commitments didn't get in the way I'd still fly with them. I didn't need so much training at the time, but they did offer it. That's not helpful save for the fact they're out there and I don't really know anyone who had a terrible experience with one. The general cattiness you see on these forums goes away once people start talking to one another one-on-one in a cooperative environment. Good luck.
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1 hour ago, oldcrusty said:
Was this in a brand new mission or an older one made in previous builds? (I don't know if that matters). I did my tests using my own simple mission made in current build. The reason I'm asking is that in one of my tests I did exactly what you described: wpt=OAP >> O/S using bearing, range and elevation and all worked fine... on the first pass.
EDIT: Oh wait, let me correct my post a little. When I tested my WPT as OAP I didn't make any corrections before designating it as OAP. If I did I suspect I'd have to mark my new refined position and use "Mark #' for OAP. That's what I had to do in my vid converting a visual designation to a Mark. You're right.
Yup, we're on the same page here. You shouldn't have to make a mark point at the designation, then set the O/S on that.
In your example, you should be able to apply the O/S to the waypoint, designate and refine on the JTAC, then hit O/S and be staring at the target with no other steps needed.
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Yeah it's weird. When you give a waypoint an O/S it becomes an OAP, because you are supposed to be aiming at it. When you have the OAP designated, and then refine it, say with TPOD and designating with TPOD, hitting O/S should apply the offset to that new, designated position. Instead, designating the OAP, then refining the aim point, then hitting O/S makes the O/S overwritten with the designation, instead of applying the O/S to the designation.
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On 3/14/2024 at 8:04 AM, Foka said:
What you are describing is INS drift correction. I don't know if it works, I only did it on TACAN position.
Offset has nothing to do with correcting waypoint position nor INS drift.
Like in your example - you have a waypoint on the tower, you know your target is 2 nm at 200 degrees, you set offset with that data and now offset is pointing at your target.That's part of what makes what I'm decribing necessary, but it is not itself what I am describing.
Also offsets are DEFINITELY involved with INS drift. Please read Hornet tacman, see W-OF function in Harrier tacman, watch linked videos in A-7 forum, or reference dash manual for the Viper for OAP/VRP/VIP if you don't understand.
Could also be a scenario where you have a great relative reference but poor absolute coordinate positioning.
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Use FRZ mode to avoid the snap-back issue for now, works well
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It's my understanding from the TACMAN that offsets in the Hornet should work like this:
Let's say we set up a waypoint on a prominent feature, like a radio tower. Let's say our offset will be a target that is a known bearing and distance from that tower. Let's say by drift, the waypoint is displaced a bit. When I have the tower in sight, I designate the waypoint, then slew either the HUD or sensor over the tower. I hit offset, I should be looking at the target.
Instead, any slewing or designating I do on the waypoint changes the offset to what I designated, and no offset is applied when hitting offset.
Am I wrong here? The current implementation makes no sense.
There was this comment in the November update, but it doesn't seem to work.
Fixed: OAP designation is incorrect with CCRP - fixed calculating relative TD OAP position
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There's a bug burried in an intentional (though possibly not correct) change.
AUTO target handoffs are bugged. The handoff is only attempted the first time you TMS up on the TGP, whether successful or not. SOI then changes to WPN. If you undesignate (TMS aft), then DMS down to make TGP SOI again, any subsequent TMS ups will NOT engage the handoff, and will instead only change SOI. The only way to get it working again is to cycle the modes to VIS and BORE back to PRE
EDIT: just read the post above about TMS right...maybe intentional then? Will check it out tonight.
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Same here, can confirm order does not matter. If you set VRP to MSEL, THEN change bombs to CCRP the crash happens immediately upon clicking CCRP. Also was not online, was just a single player mission I made up in the ME.
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No way the Hornet still has bombing issues? It's only been 4 years and it's early access so you deserve it. Oh, it's released? Well it's your fault because open beta. It happens in the stable version, too? Ummm....bombs aren't that accurate. Real pilots don't use auto or something. Need more tracks, thread closed because we can't reproduce and if we can it's supposed to do that anyway. You don't know it's a bug because you don't know the exact version, revision and favorite kool-aid flavor of everyone who worked on this Lot Hornet's software. Go TOO ripple 43 JDAMs or something.
In all seriousness, try making sure the temperature in your mission is 20C, there is a glaring error in certain designations at lower temperatures that I'm not sure is throwing the aimpoint off (it's always short when using radar and waypoints). Probably not the issue as in the Viper you can correct the designation in the hud by slewing on target before release but it will at least prevent the two bugs from compounding on one another, as the temp bug is a universal DCS issue at the moment.
I've posted 4 or 5 bug threads about this issue in its many forms throughout the years. I'll tool around tonight and see if I can't add more tracks for you, though at this point I'm not sure it will help. It's been years of the same issue.
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Good stuff my dude
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On 12/3/2023 at 6:04 PM, jeventy26 said:
I did learn the Hornet first and I do prefer that for A2G... but I prefer the F-16 in A2A. F-16 is also great at SEAD. I just am not a fan of the TGP. I am getting very good in the Viper... but I do have a question. When I am out of weapons... and I see a ground unit directly to my 9 o'clock and want to put a laser on it for my wingman, what would be the workflow to put that TGP on it quickly, aside from snowplow mode?
Did you have LGB's or Mavericks, too? Even though they're at 0 if you already used them, you can still see them on the SMS page. If LGB's, use DTOS, if Mavs, use VIS. TMS up long to make HMD SOI, look at target, TMS up short, DMS down to get the TGP to be SOI. It's not much different than the A10 except the part where you have to pick a delivery mode. If you think you'll need to save that point for reference, hit MARK, then SEQ right to TGP as source, TMS up. If you want your new MARK to be active Steerpoint, hit MSEL while still in the MARK page.
I really don't think it's that hard and the debate on who made it and why I think is based on the entirely subjective suppositions on how "clunky" it is when doing DCS stuff. Even for DCS stuff, it's not any harder than the Hornet is, and the A10 was purpose made for DCS stuff so you can't expect other airframes to be as good at loitering and plinking. In fact, you could argue DCS itself was built around the KA50 and to a lesser extent the A10, so DCS was built around this kind of mission.
Give it some more time and I'm confident you will all will get in the flow in now time. I never thought it would be, but the team on the Viper has done an excellent job in my opinion and it's probably my favorite at the moment.
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21 hours ago, Muchocracker said:
There is a confirmed issue with OAP's and has been reported
The confirmed issue is that bearing entry isn't working and is always 0 no matter what you enter. Are offsets being moved as a result of designation also reported? I didn't see it.
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On 12/1/2023 at 11:36 PM, Poptart said:
The way it functions in the game is the same way it functions in NATOPS. The only thing that isn't implemented is INS updates.
You're misreading it. It says an offset aimpoint is a waypoint with an offset associated with it, meaning OAP is the waypoint that has the offset as opposed to the Viper where the OAP is the offset itself.
Further reinforcing this, it says OAPs can be entered using map slew, but the offset must still be entered through the UFC.
Therefore, in the Hornet, OAP is just another name for a waypoint, except that waypoint has an offset associated with it.
Further, NATOPS actually supports my assertion when describing how nav updating works. "Also, the next waypoint in succession becomes designated or, in the case of an OAP, the offset becomes designated. There is no ACPT/REJ display in the AUTO update mode." When updating an OAP with an overfly, the offset is designated, NOT the OAP itself. This is describing the same process as the Viper's VIP, and more similarly to the Harrier's W/OS procedure (same manufacturer, unsurprising).
Then there's the description of NAVDSG, which says you should designate the OAP position (easily recognizable feature) then press "O/S" to add the offset to it, which will then indicate the target position.
It appears right now, doing a nav designation designates the waypoint, when you slew to something else and then hit "O/S", you will find that the offset has been changed to match the designation, so it will appear in your sensors as if nothing has happened. This is backwards and appears to be a bug. According to NATOPS, you waypoint designate, slew to where your OAP should be, then hit O/S and you should be looking at the target, as the O/S should be applied to whatever you have designated. Instead, you'll find if you watch the data page it simply changed the offset position to match what you just designated.
@Hulkbust44 are you seeing the same thing? I'm going to make a bug report if that's the case. We can't source TACMAN, but I'm pretty sure we can source NATOPS on here.
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How do you know that?
I ask because that would be counter to every other implementation of offsets, including those in other Navy aircraft and other aircraft made by the same manufacturer, it disagrees with the TACMAN for the Hornet, and it doesn't pass the common sense test. At this point, I would have to say unless there is strong affirmative evidence suggesting otherwise, my assertion is the most likely to be correct.
Every other instance of offsets (just look at old youtube videos to confirm) was assumed to be for CAS scenarios and it wasn't true. That just turned out to be backwards rationalization, and not sourced from any documentation (I'm talking Mirage, Tomcat, Harrier and Viper). I'm guessing the Hornet likely isn't the only aircraft that's going to buck this trend.
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The point of an offset is to resolve a target or waypoint location using an easily referenced feature relative to that waypoint/target. Right now in the Hornet, offsets just act like waypoints you access differently. If you have bombs loaded, Offset designated, shouldn't the ASL point to the target?
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On 11/14/2023 at 5:43 AM, nighteyes2017 said:
following the entire discussion along so far, it looks like most of the confusion is around the vis mode and the delta that designating introduces. undesignating puts the spi back on the FPM but does not reset the delta.
Like the others, this at first, does did not make sense to me. Why would you move an important reference in the hud in vis mode, and not make it reset?
However, as Lord Vader has said, this seems to be real life implementation. So i have been asking myself: why would they design it like this in real life?
Then i remembered a handy feature from the harrier that looks a lot like this. Its been some time since i flew the harrier, but i seem to remember it also has a visual marker that is placed at the point where you threw your last bomb. So when you come around for another pass, and are looking for the target area, you have a reference of where that was. Remember, we are talking about visual mode here, wich probably means we are also talking about a target of oppertunity, and not a pre planned target with a steerpoint on top of it, but rather something that doesnt have a reference point at all.
So, following those circumstances, if we designate visually at a target location, wich is away from the steerpoint where we started, and we fire a weapon at it, we now have a marker were that was. And then when we come around, we have a reference point. tms down in that case, shouldn't reset the delta, because you would want to keep that reference until you are done launching your next weapon.
This is the only reason i could come up with so far as to why the real life designers would implement it like this. It still may be a bug, but looking the logic from the perspective of a target of oppertunity, this makes some sense at least.
This isn't exactly correct.
1. Standard procedure in the viper is to switch to CCIP once a pre-planned target has been visually acquired, which is why the NWS cycling order is the way it is (CCRP->CCIP->DTOS->CCRP). CCIP does not necessarily equate to an attack on a TOO. Not a problem in and of itself.
2. The problem isn't that the reference point slews persist in VIS modes, it's that they bleed over into PRE modes (again, not necessarily a problem, might be the way it works) and can only be zero'd by hopping into a PRE mode (this is the weird part). You should be able to zero VIS slews in VIS, since every other SOI and modality demands it be zero'd by itself in its own mode. (HUD slews must be 0 in the HUD, TGP in the TGP, FCR in the FCR, so VIS is a HUD slew and should be zero'd in the HUD in VIS mode). The procedure breaks the logic presented in the write-up. Either the write-up is wrong or this procedure is, they can't both be right.
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On 11/18/2023 at 6:02 PM, jeventy26 said:
I mean I am starting to figure it out... but CAS... I don't think its close to the Hornet. Again, in a no waypoint scenario (this is important), if we had 4 targets separated by a couple of miles and we had JDAMS... and lets say we both had a good idea where the enemy is. I would put money I could engage and destroy them in the Hornet way before you could in the Viper. (Same with the A-10 but that's for CAS so it doesn't count). Also, I don't understand what you mean by the AG to AA comment. Its one button in the 18.
In what actual CAS scenario are you rippling 4 jdams on 4 targets in 4 miles in one go? JDAM TOO rippling is the number one AG thread on these forums typically and it is entirely a DCS contravention. It's cool you can do it in DCS, but knocking the real life control scheme for its ability to handle something almost no one was expected to actually do in a mission isn't logical.
Here's a different scenario: In which aircraft do you think you could more easily perform a low level ingress to pop-up dive bombing attack on a pre-planned target without GPS, with weak coordinates and without a visual on the target until you were in the groove for release given a strong relative reference? Here's a link to a write-up on the Osirak nuclear plant attack in 1981 conducted by Vipers using what appears to be the VIP method with a CCIP terminal attack. Note that missing the VIP for one of the pilots threw off his run enough that he actually had to do a go-around:
https://www.airandspaceforces.com/PDF/MagazineArchive/Documents/2012/April 2012/0412osirak.pdf
Everything in the Viper is built on the base of being able to do a mission like that. The A10C was pretty much gutted interface-wise and done from the ground up to suit more modern missions. I think people like that the A10 makes the least amount of assumptions of what the aircraft is supposed to be doing, but at the same time that makes certain things more complicated than they need to be. If you're doing a pre-planned strike on a target, why bother the pilot with constantly telling the aircraft's nav computer whether it should be paying attention or not? The Viper simply assumes if you slew something, it's because you're trying to acquire the thing you're after unless you're explicitly using a TOO mode. Makes it a lot easier.
I made a scenario wherein you need to bomb a non-descript building in a city in the Caucuses. The waypoint you're given is not on the target, simulating low coordinate resolution and drift, but a strong OA is given to a terrain feature and a VRP for a distinct shaped nearby building. If you do your slews right, you'll never see the target till a few seconds before release, and VID'ing it would be hard anyway, but with the TD box, combined with the two references make a precise CCIP delivery possible. All of this is done in less than a minute from run-in to delivery and LTL egress. You can do this sort of thing in the F15E, but the Hornet is so whacked out with bugs it can't do this and I'm not even sure how you'd begin to do something similar with the A10.
The Viper's AG mission has historically been closer to a Viggen's than an A10's, and I think multiplayer server's reliance on TOO vehicle plinking is making that more plain to see.
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I love the Viper's work flow. I think the DCS multiplayer server environment is clouding people's judgement.
It doesn't surprise me most of you find the A10C's interface better. It was made by going to Viper pilots and Hornet pilots, asking them what they liked about their HOTAS and what they didn't, and built on the results.
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Everything makes sense save for the zeroing.
CZ in VIS mode should zero out the slews made in this mode. As written here, to zero out the HUD symbology in a VIS mode, you have to go to a PRE mode then hit CZ. This makes no sense and I think that's what everyone's confused over. You don't go to a VIS mode to zero out something you did in a PRE mode, especially since PRE mode ignores slews made in VIS like it should. Hitting CZ in VIS should zero the slews you made in VIS, going to another mode should be unnecessary, and the write-up in the updated logic pinned thread backs this up. The pinned thread says that to zero a slew made in a mode, you have to go to that mode and zero it. But here you're saying we need to go to a DIFFERENT mode and zero it.
Here's the relevant writing:
- Cursor slews are now possible in several different modes that are independently accumulated. As an example, the VIP cursor may be slewed and zeroed independently of the Navigation cursor. If Cursor Zero is pressed and "CZ" remains displayed on the MFD, it is because another cursor still has cursor slews applied. This may be seen when the DTOS/VIS cursor is zeroed back to the FPM, but the main Navigation cursor may still be slewed away from the original steerpoint location. To zero the Navigation cursor, CCRP or CCIP should be entered and then CZ pressed.
This is providing an example where the nav cursor has been slewed elsewhere, not to expect the VIS mode CZ to reset that. This makes sense. However, the VIS mode according to you (and this write-up), does not actually move the STPT, it sets the current STPT to the slewed location IN VIS mode. We know this because if we go to PRE mode, the slew is gone like we expect.
These two statements cannot both be true. Also, this thread suggests this behavior is a bug:
TL: DR; hitting CZ in VIS mode should zero out all slews made in VIS mode without having to jump to another mode to zero out what was done in VIS.
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On 9/25/2023 at 8:45 AM, Kercheiz said:
ASL is wrong in presence of INS drift, but not enough to be stuck on the side of the HUD as you experienced. This is fixed for next release.
This is great news. I got the F15E to fly it old school like Natso showed in one of the pre-release videos, but this bug shelved it for me till it got fixed. Glad to hear they zapped the critter.
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On 8/11/2023 at 5:16 PM, SickSidewinder9 said:
Even before this, I noticed that if the TGP is a vehicle, the laser is kinda needed to hit it. You can actually see the coordinates in the TGP cam MFD change. I assume that without the laser, the TGP is guestimating the coordinates behind and below the vehicle/building/bridge (from its PoV).
That is the reason for all this and the new instructions, I'd suppose. And it would be somewhat realistic. It wouldn't effect accuracy of drop onto preplanned coordinates or mark points, but the mark point coordinates could still be wrong if not lasing when marking.
Make sure laser is armed and pull trigger. TMS up if you need to mark, or weapon release if you're in the drop zone. The game seems to make up for not having a 2 stage trigger on your stick, which is pretty nice. Not even sure you need the full 3 seconds either. It will assign whatever coordinates you're getting to the GPS guided weapon upon launch. Increasing the dive angle of the bomb will also help with accuracy, although it reduces range.
I doubt ED fixed this, as it's been an issue since the A10 first came out.
The laser (or any other ranging sensor), doesn't interact with objects at all, only terrain. It was SOP to lase the bottom of a vehicle to prevent it from going through the vehicle and designating a spot behind it. This is why you are seeing better accuracy in a dive, because as you adjust the pod in this posture you are getting closer and closer to designating a spot underneath the vehicle. (By going more through the top of the vehicle and less through the side).
The changes in coordinates you're seeing with lase vs no lase is due to imprecise height-over-target calculations that arrive from not using an active sensor to vet slant range (height over target is assumed to be your jets current altitude).
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The answer is A, within a certain range.
AGR is automatically used if TGP is SOI, you are in AG master mode and you're within xnm of what it's looking at (I don't know the exact range). If the laser is used, the system will prefer it over the radar range.
As far as differences, I don't know what's modeled in DCS. IRL, PP (or "absolute" positioning) is always more accurate than TOO (or "relative" position). This is because relative positioning has an additional computational hurdle in determining target position.
As for sensor accuracy, the laser is generally more accurate (barring things like smoke and cloud cover which affect the two sensors differently). The radar increases in accuracy the closer and higher angle you are to the spot you're looking at. The Mirage models this phenomenon when doing radar Nav updates or PI mode bombing. Though that radar can't be slewed and looks at a fixed point, the concept is the same. In the Mirage for best results you need a dive and to keep the jet steady so the computer can figure out the center of the radar cone and take the range from that. The Viper does this part for you by pointing the beam at the TGP target (or CCIP pipper or HUD tgt etc).
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TGP Auto Handoff to AGM-65D Causes Loss of SOI
in DCS: F-16C Viper
Posted
This is completely broken now. Automatic handoffs don't work at all as far as I can tell