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Supmua is the only grip option they offer the Bluetooth or is there something for the FS base? I intend to pick one up for right side mounting when the f16 drops, probably use my WH grip, but the 5-ways and higher quality buttons sound great. Im not sure I understand the relationship between BT and button functionality. If you had it on a fssb would it still require BT? Also, your comment about the other axises and throttle? I realize this isn’t what they’re for but the thought of a throttle at this quality/price level is the holy grail... Not picking on ya but fyi there’s no way they accidentally snap roll’d, aileron roll maybe but snaps are different. Snap rolls aren’t really a roll, it’s a stall that requires coordinated and timed inputs that wouldn’t happen accidentally. Where a really sensitive y axis might cause you to roll faster/further than intended, snap rolls don’t use aileron (much). The easiest type requires you to asymmetrically stall at high AOA, which (from level flight) means full elevator followed by full rudder, stalling the wing on that side, and as the other comes around full opposite rudder and hard push to arrest the spin. I’ve never seen a fighter jet do one, not sure it’s even possible (they don’t like asymmetric lift conditions, create adverse yaw, etc). They aren’t particularly difficult (basic ones at least, negative G entry, vertical, or compound maneuvers like avalanche k-values increase significantly), but the entry condition and control inputs aren’t likely to occur without intent. Despite being able to do one with my eyes closed I have a difficult time in sims, I think it’s partially the sticks we have (control forces always the same regardless of deflection/speed), and absence of seat of pants reference and the SA you have in RL... don’t know. Ordinarily I’d say “slamming your stick around” doesn’t equate to lack of precision, if your in a fight I don’t know why you’d roll at less than full aileron, but personally hard to be that precise in a sim (for me at least)

Goblin I somehow missed that first link with the simbox, as above poster said that is outstanding work! No MFDs though eh? Mouse clicking mfd buttons (and UFC cords, etc), and the inability to use a kneeboard scratchpad is among my greatest irritations in VR. Funny how important a friggin pencil is in a $50M jet

Lol I can cut and shape aluminum fine but I only have an old stick welder that I don’t think can (or at least I don’t know) weld aluminum. But the stuff we are talking about isn’t a problem The 8020 type extrusion material is appealing though due to its modularity and ability to change as I get different equipment, I can then make plate components or nicely finished hardwood tables for mouse, game pad, etc. I admire the hornet pit type stuff people build but I fly VR, and want something suitable for multiple modules with easy to find controls (with headset on), for flexible bindings that work among multiple modules. My plan is to supplement the VKB center stick with a realsims force sensitive right side when the viper drops. Then I’ll have a real difficult decision - keep mcg pro or swap in the f14 grip and use the right side stick for everything else (leaves helos with cyclic)

And ironically this is the comfortable headset with the big sweet spot? It definitely likes to be tight, with the panels right up as close as possible. It is heavier than others, but it does look damn good when you get it right. I do periodically take a turn out or in while playing.... like part of my fence in, two clicks to the right pre dogfight, etc I like that they released the cad files for 3rd party face plates. Everyone that has ever got one of those custom ones has raced about it, but you have to be at a tech show or similar in person to get it done. We’ll see what vrcover and such come up with, it actually fits my face pretty well, but I know some people it does not

I have shop room, i am better setup and experienced with wood but can cut//grind/shape most metal and weld some. I am exclusively vr, and prefer the strength, modularity of aluminum. Though intend to work in some laquered/polished panels for certain surfaces. Just something that’s looks good enough for the area, with sturdy mounts, that can be upgraded as I change my gear. I’ve giving up on the idea of dual race sim use. Leaning towards blank anodized extruded aluminum. I became a member of hornet pits but that’s not for me, it doesn’t have to be a 100% replica, just work ,

Ya I wouldn’t want to fresh instal again either, I’d imagine your best bet is juts to uninstall oculus, like you said, and see how it goes. If you have any trouble can always reinstall later

Hah... that’s not my extra, though I’ve flown plenty. I fly a modified su-29, which due to the size of the m14p is about as wide as your average lazy-boy, with elementary school cafeteria seat inspired cushions, but it sure sounds a lot sexier than any lycoming Fwiw as a bigger man myself these monos are like a Cadillac compares to the Pitts of 20 years ago, and while we might lose a little useful load it’s better to fit like a glove then bounce around like a can of spare change when tumbling

Nice work Goblin, I'm on the fence about whether to bother with a spring/cushion seat like that or summit shell. Leaning toward the latter given its so cheap if I don't like it im only out $50. Rustbelt - Agreed on the kirky, mostly posting for contrast. That's my concern with the shells in general though. As you said, fine for a 1/4 mile, not for a 2 hour stint. I'm leaning toward to RCI, just looks more ergonomic, but the summit lowback is wider looking. I like the upholsterer suggestion as well, presumably I'll get something much closer to the Extra in my original post going that route. My only concern is bolsters. We don't need em in planes as no lateral G (plus you aren't moving in a hooker harness), so the seats are wider. I just don't want anything interfering with the free movement of my right arm. Anyway, thanks for advice. I'll give it a go and post an update

Sounds like you need to tweak some settings, side by side odyssey shouldn’t compare. There shouldn’t be god rays, there’s light scatter around the periphery in certain conditions (generally dark scenes with high contrast objects), but not the define ray from a high contrast shape that was so pronounced in gen 1 headsets People have had some weird carryover bugs with steam. I did a fresh windows install but you could probably get away with removing all things steamvr, fresh driver, kill all things WMR related in your DCS install (fxo, metashaders, any change to the projection that addressed the pupil swim in DCS and o+), then start over with steam. Also, proper adjustment is key. Dial in ipd, then bring lenses in as tight as you can tolerate. Individual other settings will depend on your specs, but advanced ssettings for steam be is must have, fpsVR helps to see frame timing in game Not sure that’s your problem but objectively speaking as someone with both HMDs they should not be close.

I’ve used just about every headset but cannot get my hands on a reverb. I’ll be real interested in your opinions after you’ve had the chance to side by side them. DCS really causes one to make certain sacrifices in settings due to performance reasons, and that effects the experience in ways most reviewers don’t contemplate.

I agree, at that price I would not purchase one either. To be honest, I like the controllers, and I think support will improve. But, while I found myself buying everything on steam the first few days, most of the time I still sit down and fly.... only using the controllers to bring up steamer menus. Gore and swords and sorcery or whatever are fun with the ability to change grip strength, and the precision in shooting games is remarkable. But again, most of the time I fly My biggest frustration with VR is general is the premature jump to inside out. It’s just not nearly as good, the utility is obvious, and the industry will end up there eventually, but would have been great if they had the ability to operate in parallel or something. Perhaps inside out capable, but improved when at home with a couple LH. It’s just so much better. The setup argument is nonsense. The new LH turn on and off via Bluetooth signal, and just plug into the wall. Setup is like 5 clicks- point at monitor, pull trigger; put on floor, click ok, walk around room holding trigger, click ok. Done. I’ll trade that 20 seconds of my life for sub millimeter accuracy. They do add to cost though.

Hi Skarden, That is a reasonable approach, I used a rift S for a while, it's not a bad headset if you are its target market. The distribution and availability issues are an issue as well. Overall it seems a reasonable approach. That said, I did not mean to understate the step forward of these high end current gen. As in a real plane, where I quickly glance at instruments and keep my head up as much as possible, in an index you can read airspeed clearly in an f14 while your head is up, dogfighting. That seemingly small change, that required substantial increase in FOV and edge to edge clarity, is literally game changing. I fly the ball... In a Hornet, every letter of text on the mfds are clearly and quickly readable without zooming (the only exception being occasional text without enough contrast to resolve against he moving map). As I mentioned I haven't yet tried a Reverb, which if availability and price were an issue for me I would seriously consider if I had the PC specs to drive it. I don't believe they are as hard to get. I've also not seriously considered a VR-1, though I did almost purchase one, the Varjo guys actually talked me out of it (its commercial only, but was buy through my company). The latter isn't practical, but the reverb is. Again, I have not personally used it, so I cannot say for sure. My personal feelings about facebook notwithstanding, just make sure you understand what Rift S is. My encouraging you to do independent research and escape the fanboyism that can dominate these threads assumed you would do the research. Rift S is a fine headset, but you last post gave the impression that Rift S is representative of the higher end headsets of this generation. If I gave you that impression, I didn't mean to do so. It is a good product for the right user, just make sure you are that user.

OP- I won't recommend a headset, but rather diligence, or a change in approach. There are like 3 people in this thread qualified to respond (have used both), most are rift s owners defending their value minded purchase. Supmua, the other guy, (and maybe another, I admit I kinda skimmed it) I was a VR early adopter, and have owned or spent at least 20 hours in rift, rift s, vive, vive pro, pimax 5k, odyssey + and Index. I tried some other garbage WMR but that doesn't count. I unfortunately have not had the opportunity to try a reverb. I was fortunate enough to receive a tech demo of a VR-1 but it was not with controllers much less DCS. I seriously considered buying one, but had concerns about compatibility and support. Regardless, in that time I have learned a couple things. Frist - Stats will help you understand a headset: https://i.redd.it/xuia1ap36pa31.png Second - Stats will only help you understand the basics of the headset, and that the overall experience is not merely the sum of its parts. For some headsets this nets positive, for others negative. Third - 90% of people online are just justifying their decision, and crapping on other people's stuff. VR is weird this way. Compare flightsticks, sooner or later most serious simmers end up with VKB/Virpil/Realsim - yet, people with Warthogs don't shit on FSSB R3 lightings as overpriced, and vice versa. But VR? hostility everywhere. Fourth - Your value proposition, willingness to deal with inconvenience of leading edge tech, budget, PC specs, corporate ethics and how you feel about open vs. closed ecosystems, and how you could otherwise use extra money will greatly effect your decision. Everyone's value proposition is different, asking which is best or whether X is enough better than Y to justify price is useless. It's like asking if a Ferrari is worth 8x the cost of a Camry. The answer is very different if you are driving to soccer practice, or hauling ass through twisties and trying to skeez chicks half your age with $20M in the bank. Seek out unbiased sources, Ars, uploadvr, etc., think about your PM specs (with a 2080ti and 9900k I struggle to push an index at the level I want), what you want to spend total, and what you want to spend that money on. Think about whether you are better off with a rift s and upgraded stick, or maybe you have a great stick and money isn't a big concern thus Index is the clear favorite? But no matter what, don't take recommendations blindly. Definitely not here, definitely not hoggit. Most opinions here have no basis in fact, you will not see my criticize a Reverb because I have not tried one. You will not find that to be a common approach. Another poster and I recently wasted a couple hours of our lives debating the stick feel of an aircraft we had a couple thousand combined flight hours in against somebody that I later became convinced was completely full of BS and had never flown anything that wasn't simulated. Point is, people are full of shit, but its hard to tell who's who. Given the cost of these devices, you should your own research and consider your personal circumstances. Unbiased information is out there. Ideally, find a friend and try them. If you can't, some headsets are much easier to get and much more returnable than others (I had a rift S for almost 30-days waiting on Index and Amazon took it back no questions asked).

Ya index is doing something funny with the frame rate. I'm assuming that other dude doesn't have one, as I would agree that 40 fps is unplayable in a rift, for example. I have motion smoothing off, and I'm either at 60fps or, if I get in a demanding graphics environment, it drops to 40. Not 47, then 53... its 60, or 40. Fortunately its not very often that I do 700 knots down main st. of dubai, but even then 40fps is very smooth. I'd rather it was 60, but not wiling to turn down settings that much If you use the fpsVR overlay you can see CPU and GFU frame timing. Given your specs are identical to mine, I can assure you that you aren't CPU limited. Rarely with will CPU draw get over 10-12ms, even with driver and openVR overhead.

man I had a bunch of testing with screenshots then went to post and realized fpsVR overlay doesn't show up. Bummer. As to PD, it should be better to do it in steam but VR is finicky, for DCS personally it seems PD of 1.3 in Index is enough to give razor sharp MFD text. Its probably better to do it in Steam, as then you can have a per app multiplier, but I am not convinced they occur at the same spot in the render pipeline, or that individual games can't optimize their supersampling better than steam's global setting, as there definitely appears to be a difference I will keep tinkering, if you haven't already, advanced settings and fpsVR help. I can't run view distance as low as you do, over dubai at 10k feet and the only building visible is the Burj? Given the loss of my data and desire to actually fly I'm going to play for now and tinker later. I'd be interested if you find a sweet spot however

Ok so your struggling with the same thing I am, what and how much to sacrifice for that 2x MSAA. It’s that drop either in cities or online that bugs me. I might try dropping my view distance and shadows, flat only though... I am surprised you supersample only in steam? Pd= 1 in DCS?

Supmua- We’ve got almost identical setups and I’ve been tinkering with index, well not daily, but as much as life allows. My opinion is very similar to yours, it’s fantastic. But what have you settled on for settings? I thought I had it dialed it, but I’m right at the point where there is a trade off, I just can’t maintain 60 FPS with the settings I want for clarity (in certain situations/locations). My rig couldn’t be faster, I got lucky in the lottery on both cpu/gpu, my ram is at 3866, I even did a fresh windows install day before I got index

It's actually from an extra-330, unlimited class aerobatic plane with a very comfortable seating position. Certainly custom for the airplane, but I wasn't sure if that's what you meant. So, my thing on making it from scratch. I've had good office chairs and bad ones, and its a big difference. I feel like if I make it its more likely to be on the "bad one." side. If I use a cheap poly race seat I can always add foam to it, using the poly shell as a frame. And at least then I have the cover already made right? Anyway, still looking... so if anyone happens to know of anything.... *edit - did you look at that seat? Its not a typical honda seat. Just a poly shell with a vinyl cover. They're race seats, usually for spring cars, so they don'[t have the high backs that most car race seats do.

FIrst off I just found this section, very cool stuff you guys are up to. I am inspired That said, my current question is more modest. I am building a VR cockpit (If that's what you call it?). 8020 frame, center stick (long extension VKB), plans to mount fSSB or whatever the acronym is for their f-16 on right. Currently have a WH throttle because, well, I can't find a better one. I put a small gamepad (basically a 10key wtih 4 additional buttons to mirror UFC buttons to the left of thorttle, and a mouse to the right of side stick). Plans currently have MFDs on a simple mount and a T angled off the center stick mount. Basic VR stuff. What is absolutely killed me is the seat. I fly a center stick plane irl, which is probably why i enjoy an unrealistically large deflection of the extended Gunfighter II. This is much nicer than mine (new extra 330) but I would like something like this - note the curved extension, quit similar to the VKB: The fabric dusts cover isn't necessary, the main point being the cutout. Even the curved stick feels very unaturally too far forward to me. I like to have my legs almost level (seat heigh just a few inches), and at full deflection stick pulled back a good maybe 5-6" from abdomen,with the ability to rest my arm on my leg under straight and level flight. Does anyone know of anybody that makes a seat with a cut out? I can't find one any where. The other thing I am considering is making one out of a sprint car type seat. I could pick up an RCI lowback for $50, I could then easily cutout the section required, put a jetseat (the FSE has the coutout as well), and though I'm no seamstress, I am pretty sure I could modify a seat cover as needed. And at $50 for the cover, I would be upset if I mess it up. Seat I'm talking about: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/rci-8020s Cover: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/rci-8021s/overview/ You can get fancier but I'm not sure I see the point of high bolsters and such. If I fall out it won't be from G forces. There are lots of other options, aviation stuff is prohibitively expensive, any the highback seats seem like would interfere with headset cord, maybe even tracking, and again, just generally be more than necessary. That said, these aluminum vintage seats would be easy to mount, and already have the triangle cut out. More expensive though. Examples here: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/kir-55150v and https://www.summitracing.com/parts/kir-5517001v Anyway, that's my thinking at the moment. If anyone has any better ideas or links to manufacture I missed please let me know - this si the only thing holding up my build!

Now that the mine is bigger than yours/I need to justify my purchase bs has all calmed down, I think you guys made the right decision. I bought (rented) a rift s while waiting on my index, it is not even close. I have not had the opportunity it’s to try a reverb, would like to, but after tinkering with settings I’ve got my index sustaining 60fps at 120hz with no reprojection, it’s silky smooth, I can read everything in a cockpit, mfds included, all the way to the edges. Colors maybe don’t pop as much as vive pro, but zero sde. I literally have nothing negative to say, at most: I’d like more content that takes advantage of finger tracking, but that will come. I’d like a quick hornet to turn chaperone on and off, pretty sure I just haven’t figured that out. It’s expensive That’s it really... There’s nothing wrong with the other HMDs, but it’s literally like going from something good (say, WH gimbal), to something like gunfighter or virpil mongoose. Both quality products, but you can (and will) spend hours marveling at the quality of manufacturing and design of a gunfighter base. The other is just a piece of plastic that works ok and will void your warranty if you look too close. Again, nothing wrong with the former, but it’s a different kind of product

Not being critical of you specifically but what real pilots do is of no real consequence. DCS is a different tactical environment, we either fly SP with scripted ai wingmen, or online with limited coordination, no mission planning, no intelligence or surveillance. For real-time we basically get awacs, no ATARS for ground targets (our aegis don’t even contribute). No RL Hornet driver is going to fly solo, build a SAR image of a target area, ID targets of opportunity and salvo off eight stand off weapons. We necessarily are more self sufficient in locating, identifying, and firing on targets. So while ground moving may not be useful in a real theater loaded with civilians, for us, a tpod slaved to GMT might be pretty damn useful. Terrain avoidance is another good example. The low altitude flight we routinely do is completely unrealistic, so where TA may never be used irl it might be useful for the missions we fly.

Bro you are a one man anti -index crusader, maybe you got a bad one or something? I am bringing to think this heat issue is isolated to some units, as mine does not get hot Also seems like you are suddenly anti -vr in general, not just ani-index, but very pro index prior to release... But now all about that 4k. What changed? Did you have a HMD previously? What were your expectations coming in? Honestly I'm struggling to figure out your issue besides not being able to read mfd. If no vr experience the index should blow your mind, if you're used to previous gen, then I can under stand an argument that index is too expensive or something, but clarity and such relative to other hmd is substantially better, whether you think it's worth the cost difference is another matter.

nrosko- Your problem sound like just not knowing steamvr well. You might try Advanced settings: https://github.com/matzman666/OpenVR-AdvancedSettings It should help you get your settings dialed in, audio and chaperone problems, etc

Unplayable is an absurd overstatement of some of the issues vr has, many of which the index drastically improves. On a 4k monitor you can read a mfd more clearly - OK Here's my test, as I say in my sig, I have a fair bit of time in the air, the majority of which in high performance aircraft. Mine is certified to +12/-10Gs. I find flat screen to be unplayable because it's boring, whereas vr I feel like I'm in the cockpit (to some extent at least). I practice competition sequences in xplane in vr, it's more useful than visualization techniques we used to use. It doesn't really refine my stick and rudder work, but it helps my SA tremendously (and just Memorizing, etc).. Doing this on a flat as screen would be a waste of time. Like I said, I spent a bunch of time sitting on my ass scoot ing around on the floor racing a little host yesterday. I can't imagine something more boring on a monitor, in vr it was a blast. Little sailboats are cool, fighters are cooler. VR can put my inside one, not in my office looking at a screen

What??? Ok, tired of repeating myself for each of these threads, I gotta most the lawn and want to play (FYI I am foregoing real flying today on a beautiful day to play with indexJ. Copy/paste of my response to similar thread on hoggit: ---- Ya that's nonsense. Get off YouTube, content creators want views. Find a friend with one and try it. Anyone calling it a bust is full of shift, has alterior motives, doesn't know shift about vr, doesn't have system specs to push it, is buttburt about cost, or, giving benefit of the doubt maybe have fit adjusted properly or some setting is bonked.. I had tempered my expectations after the previews, but it's blown me away in every way. In term of image qua,it, coming from o+ for clarity (for dcs), it absolutely destroys it. That clarity extends from edge to edge (speaking of which, fov is improved, but the vertical fov increase is dramatic and something we don't discuss). I can, for example, look down a bit to check airspeed, and see it clearly, in the f14 while still keep my head up outside the cockpit. I can clearly read MFDs in f18 without zooming, Including closing speeds, target altitude, etc, on radar, after quickly glancing down. SDE is still there to a small extent but you really really have to look. It's like a soft texture, if anything. It's hard a bit to explain, but purely SDE is similar to O+ but without the loss in clarity and just a vastly improved image overall. Just image wise I would say that going from rift to o+ was an improvement, but not jaw dropping. Going from o+ to index is jaw dropping in every way. I'm a lawyer so spend a lot of time reading text, I can easily read text on virtual desktop and it's super clear. The comfort/heat comments are craziest of all... I don't know what people are wearing before, but it is less hot and more comfortable than any previous hmd I've owned. It is heavy, but it's heavy in a holy shot this feels nice and expensive way. The adjustability allows you to put the back part on the exact right spot, then adjust so that the headset, speakers, then screen position (IPD and fov/relief) to perfectly fit. After that it just slips on and off easier than any HMD I've worn, perfect spot everytime. The complaint may come from material they chose, they have a soft memory foamish feel to it. I like the material, it's certainly high end, more breathable than material like vrcover, but probably more absorption, aka rift. I can't say for sure, because I didn't sweat much (despite some prolonged boxing and beat Saber). No doubt some design balancing here. Fortunately valve, being valve, released cad files for aftermarket to make face plates for any preference or face shape. But over all, the lack of ear phones covering the ears (major source of heat loss), makes it cooler than any HMD I've warn. It is heavy though, but the way it slides on and off your face with just the right amount of stretch and tilt.... I don't know what else to say, it was a major focus of the design. Not just physical comfort, either. I have played two long 6+ hour stretches now with barely any VR weird feeling afterward, and no discomfort during (contrast with O+ where my eyes would start bugging maybe 45 min in). There is not god rays. I'll say it again, God ways are the rays coming off high contrast objects, eminating linearly from that object. In certain scenes, there is some light scatter around the vertical edges. Again, it's not constant, and the only reason it's noticeable is because then screen is so damn clear that I actually look with my eyes over there, rather than staring straight ahead at a tiny sweet spot. A very clear image reveals things that would jot be noticeable on other lower end HMDs. Anyone bitching about plugging in two boxes is a moron, we knew it was external heading in, it takes literally 30 seconds and the tracking is flawless. 30 seconds and two ac plugs for flawless tracking? OK...mTwo examples- sitting on my floor like an idiot, jumping from one side to the other tacking while sailing a boat, one hand on tiller, other on sheet. Worst possible position for occlusion, yet the tiniest movement was picked up. In DCS it matters as well, the tracking is extremely fast, I can whip my head from side to side, and due to extremely low latency, the image is in immediate focus. I have a beast of a system. 9900k at 5.1, 2080ti at 2150, 32gb running at 3844, and I can mainain 120 in everything except DCS. I had high hopes for reverb, though even with my system I was concerned about performance. resolution is the most expensive (resource wise) ways to improve fidelity. Valve did it with outstanding ergos and adjuability, lenses, and screen tech without forcing us to draw 4x the number of pixels, allowing for things like the 120 refresh. The controllers are expensive, and not all games take advantage of them. They are, hands down, the nicest vr controller I've used however. My gunfighter mk ii was a whole lot more than my first t.1600, but picking up t.1600 feels like a toy. Same thing here, they exude quality, and work beautifully. As with everything about the headset, there is a very slick system where you push in the strap to twist the hand size adjuster (adjusts angle of surface where buttons and such are relative to your palm). Playing gorn and laughing my ass off, I could relax my grip, slide my hand down the weapon for longer reach. Same with two hand guns, with hand still on rail, just ease my grip to slide hand further down the rail, and utilize that sub mm tracking to plink headshots. Best thing I can say about controllers is that I rarely play anything but dcs in vr, but in last two days I've barely played. Instead I purchased literally everything in steam store because room scale is a blast, I'm not sitting on o+ or rift s (well kinds rift s, feels like a toy, image quality is shit, and **** oculus and their closed ecosystem). Again though, thanks valve for releasing it coincident with summer sale. I repurchase almost everything I had in oculus store because I don't want to bother with revive. O+ is a great bang for the buck, but does not compare in any way. I have a great modified one for sale for anyone on a tight budget. Comfort, image quality, sound, tracking, though index blows it away. It's not perfect, but nothing is yet. But I could not be more happy with it. FYI I have zero incentive to bs, not trying to attract views. I've also been fort ate enough to buy whatever headset I want. I actually considered a vr-1 and investigated it during the last month waiting, but am totally happy with the index.