MBot
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Posts posted by MBot
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The new dive bombing routine is flown too slow by AI.
In the attached track the WP speed at attack tasking is 540 KTAS. The AI slows down to 380 KTAS to approach the target and roll in. The roll in is performed with breaks extended with a speed at roll out of 310 KTAS. Speed at release is again 380 KTAS. This is dangerously slow to maneuver over the target area.
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1 hour ago, BenBenBeartrax said:
@MBot Would this be helped if one used the seeker head as a "tracking source" through the appropriate position of the "Msl Rej" switch (I'm unsure of the exact naming of it)?
It is my understanding that this switch only affects the data source for the computer's range calculations. Both in WRCS and in Direct mode, the needles in the ADI will show where the seeker head is looking at regardless. As such this does not affect the fundamental problem that "Heatblur's missile" will see stuff on the launch rail that "ED's missile" will not see after launch.
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I did some fresh testing with Mk49 Mod 0 against SA-6:
I think a big problem is a discrepancy between the Heatblur model (RWR, weapon seeker pre-launch) and ED model (weapon seeker post-launch).
In my testing, the Phatoms RWR and the Shrike seeker did pick up the SA-6 tracking radar regardless of which direction it is pointing. I think that is because Heatblur simulates receiving radar sidelobes. But once launched and the ED weapon modeling takes over, the Shrike will only track the SA-6 when it is within the mainlobe of the tracking radar. It will track when fired 40° off axis and will not track when fired 50° (or more) off axis.
So unfortunately a seeker tone/ADI bars in the cockpit is no guarantee that the weapon will track after launch.
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Here are some current test results. Tested Shrike with Mk49 Mod 0 seeker against SA-6 STR from various off-axis angles.
Methodology: Own aircraft spawned 5 NM from radar in active pause. Own aircraft set to invisible so it is ignored by enemy radar. Friendly aircraft spawned at various locations around the radar to test SA-6 locking it up and pointing its tracking radar at different directions.
Results:
40° off axis from the direction the SA-6 STR is tracking: "6" visible on RWR, seeker giving tone, seeker steering cues display on ADI, missile tracks target after launch.
50° off axis from the direction the SA-6 STR is tracking: "6" visible on RWR, seeker giving tone, seeker steering cues display on ADI, missile does not track after launch.
180° off axis from the direction the SA-6 STR is tracking: "6" visible on RWR, seeker giving tone, seeker steering cues display on ADI, missile does not track after launch.
Interpretation:
It seems that on the F-4E Phantom avionics side of things (RWR simulation as well as Shrike seeker before launch), receipt of radar side lobes is simulated. That is why the RWR shows the SA-6 even when it is tracking in the opposite direction. This also extends towards the the Shrike seeker before launch, which also gives tone on sidelobes. This seems to be because all DCS weapon do not exist prior to launch and are actually part of the aircraft code. But once launched, the DCS weapon code takes over and here ARM only seem to track radar mainlobes.
Shrike_SA-6_180°_noTracking°.trk Shrike_SA-6_40°_Tracking°.trk Shrike_SA-6_50°_noTracking°.trk
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I know exactly how you feel!
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15 minutes ago, Ziggy123 said:
I don't think this is relevant. This chart is probably for frequency pairings of VORTAC stations. But the VOR stations on Kola do not have TACAN. Tuning 121X for ATA will not return a TACAN signal (because it is VOR only).
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On the Kola map, Jester TACAN Tune Ground Station lists VORs in addition to TACANs. Note sure if this is a definition problem on the map side or a Heatblur problem.
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New ships are extremely rare in DCS and unfortunatly will probably never be added in significant numbers. Based on their gameplay value by offering new interactions with player aircraft, I would prioritise the Kashin DDG (SA-N-1 SAM) and Kara CG (SA-N-3 SAM).
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Bumb for dual purpose naval guns on existing ships in DCS.
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Bump to make any ship EWR capable with the option to assign the EWR Task. Needed for picked destroyers, carrier fighter direction etc.
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1 hour ago, YoYo said:
Can they be destroyed now? I tried once (long time ago) and they didn't seem to react to hits.
Nope. And the submarine bases are too shallow to place your own submarine or ship units as targets. Just ridiculous...
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5 hours ago, T.Power said:
DCS isn't a Submarine Simulator.
I guess the thought that you can fly over these places never occurred to you...
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Ehh...
Polyarny submarine base:
Olenya Guba submarine base:
Gadzhiyevo submarine base:
This is the key area of the theater. For a map that is supposed to leave early access on July 22, this still looks ridiculously bad.
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So Kola is going out of Early Access with the major Norwegian cities of Tromso, Narvik or Hammerfest missing completely and most of Norway being bare of any villages and infrastructure? Wow.
Meanwhile Ugra with their Cold War Germany map...
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9 hours ago, Zabuzard said:
You are misunderstanding the quote. When you press RESET right while being above the VIP, it returns back to the VIP because its right under you.
I am sorry but this makes no sense whatsoever. How would you be able to press Freeze, Insert, Reset, then Insert again (note no prior Freeze) "and so on" while staying stationary over the VIP. I am not convinced.
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Doing the pod and flying at the same time is way beyond my abilities
What I do is I have the button for switching seats on my stick and have bound the hand controller in the WSO seat to my flightstick. That way I can basically switch between flying the plane and working the pod at the tip of my finger.
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There might be a bug with WRCS Freeze/Reset. This excerpt is taken from the 347 TFW DOW New Information Pamphlet #24 Pave Spike:
The underlined part does not work like that in DCS. After Freeze/Target Insert and then pressing Reset, the pod LOS will move and hold the position directly under the aircraft, not to the point that was freezed.
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14 hours ago, Kirk66 said:
There really isn't an easy way that I know to do Pave Spike LGB deliveries without a human WSO in DCS at present. It can be done, but flying the jet and running the pod at the same time is a bit much (but a lot of fun to try - kinda like backseat landings).
I would use WRCS in TGT FIND, a VIP (freeze/insert) to cue the pod to the target, select track and spike toss the LGB, setup the designation turn, then try to find the target and lase before impact.
If you haven't got these documents yet, please get them at:
https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3335473/
Pave Spike procedures are in 347th TFW DOW NIP #24.
LGB delivery parameters are in 3rd TFS Conventional Weapons Planning Guide.
Cheers
Thank you very much for the documents, this is fantastic reading material.
I have been pretty much using the delivery profile you describe. But because it requires Pave Spike to be put into tracking mode before the loft, it greatly depends on getting accurate slant range at low altitude, which is a well known problem. For me, the precision of actually throwing the bombs towards the target is not so much the issue. Terminal guidance can make up for quite a bit of range error. But the precision of the Pave Spike track after the loft maneuver is causing me troubles. Often it is so much off that I am unable to re-locate the target in time for the laser designation, spoiling the attack. I tried to improve this with a two-stage loft. First I enter a shallow climb to about 500 ft, put the pod into track and then pull up into the full loft. This improves the precision of the slant range and helps to get a track closer to the target, but it does not full resolve the issue. Sometimes it works, sometimes an attack is spoiled. It would be great to be able to keep Pave Spike in WRCS acquisition until after the loft maneuver, which works great to keep the pod pointed at the target. But unfortunately this is mutually exclusive with doing a TGT FIND weapon release.
I would have expected that LABS LOFT deliveries of laser-guided bombs were considered, because it is unaffected by the slant-range problem at low altitude (and terminal guidance make up for the general inaccuracies of LABS). Also it would have allowed a very low approach to target under cover with no LOS required before the attack (lofting over a hill for example). But it seems this was not considered. Because there was no good way to get Pave Spike on target quickly without WRCS integration?
I agree that using Pave Spike solo in DCS is challenging. But I have been operating on the premise that the WSO cannot reasonably control the pod anyway while the pilot is maneuvering, and the pilot should not maneuver while the WSO is operating the pod. So while not ideal, quick seat swapping and doing the pilot/WSO tasks in sequence is at least possible. It is certainly a lot of fun.
I am really enjoying going a bit deeper into these tactical considerations for the F-4E.
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On 2/18/2022 at 11:59 PM, Kirk66 said:On 2/17/2022 at 10:16 PM, mkellytx said:
Would love to hear your take on low level deliveries with either pod.
Doable - see the Eldorado Canyon F-111 attacks for Pave Tack use at low alt - but the problem with low alt LGBs is you really need a vertical target, and then you get "podium effect" where you fly around the target and the weapon loses the laser spot as it is coming in from one direction while you are lazing from the other side.
In the F-4 with Spike you could do a pop attack and toss the GBU-12, and use delayed lazing to wait until the GBU was on the way down; then basically float the pop up until weapon impact. Not good if there was any serious SAMs or AAA. SA-6/8s and ZSU-23-4s would eat you alive...
And you really need GBU-24s that are designed for low alt deliveries; GBU-10s and 12s lose too much energy due to their "bang-bang" guidance. More of an F-15E kind of thing...
Somewhere I've probably got some old tactics manuals that describe how to do it; I'll have to dig around and see if I can find them.
Vulture
@Kirk66 Sorry for digging up old posts, but I am experimenting with low level deliveries for laser-guided bombs and this seems highly relevant. Do you remember what weapon delivery modes you used for lofting LGBs and how Pave Spike was cued on to the target during/after the loft? Any real-life input you could give would be highly appreciated.
I had some success with lofting directly out of Target Find mode:
The problem with this is that it is rather unreliable in practice. As Pave Spike needs to be put into tracking mode before the loft maneuver (to get weapon release calculations) and the view angle to the target is really flat at low level before the loft, there can be a big target tracking error. Quite often I come out of the loft into the designation phase, unable to subsequently find the target with the pod, with the pod tracking a point either way ahead or beyond the target.
Alternatively I tried to loft in the LABS LOFT mode. But here WRCS acquisition mode is unavailable to Pave Spike and therefore the pod cannot be aligned with the target after coming out of the loft maneuver into the designation phase.
Alternatively I tried to hand-loft in Direct mode, which works surprisingly well. Direct mode would allow Pave Spike WRCS acquisition, but WRCS target insertion does not work in Direct. Therefore the pod doesn't have a target it can be quickly cued on after the loft maneuver.
How was this done?
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I would be really interested how for example the 86th TFW in Ramstein intended to use laser-guided bombs with their Pave Spikes. Because I don't really see them doing medium-altitude level deliveries over East Germany.
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13 hours ago, MBot said:
I guess my quest continues to find a tactically sensible way to use laser-guided bombs in a high-threat low-level environment such as Cold War Germany. Probably the best way will be to just use Direct (as usual...), hand-fly a loft maneuver guided by the values for a loft from the Bombing Table and have Pave Spike pre-aligned with the WRCS target.
Ok, so I tried this out. Hand tossing the LGBs in Direct actually turns out to be surprisingly easy. I can easily get the bomb close enough on target without guidance. But here is the catch with Pave Spike:
When in Direct, Target Insert doesn't work correctly. The button doesn't illuminate but something happens none the less. Pave Spike in WRCS acquisition mode, by default looking straight down, now moves to align with a point in the distance. But it is not the point at the entered offset. It seems to be a point far away. A laser designation after bomb release is therefore impossible.
When in Direct and additionally putting the TGT FIND switch in the WSO pit into HOLD, on Target Insert a WRCS target at the selected offset is created correctly and the aircraft provides steering to it. So far so good. But now WRCS acquisition for Pave Spike is no longer available with the WRCS OUT light illuminated! Therefore the pod can again not be pre-aligned with the target.
This is so extremely frustrating. All the avionics elements for easy LGB lofting are available, but they are not all available at the same time.
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Thanks for your feedback. I have been using the in-game manual exclusively, which is a little bit sparse on the integration of LABS modes with WRCS.
I guess my quest continues to find a tactically sensible way to use laser-guided bombs in a high-threat low-level environment such as Cold War Germany. Probably the best way will be to just use Direct (as usual...), hand-fly a loft maneuver guided by the values for a loft from the Bombing Table and have Pave Spike pre-aligned with the WRCS target.
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Ok sorry guys, I think I have found my mistake. Indeed @ldnz was correct. Pull-Up Range in the Bombing Table is indeed measured from target and is the sum of the Release Range plus the distance covered by the pull-up maneuver. This can be double checked by inserting a loft angle of 90° in the Bombing Table, then Release Range becomes 0 and the Pull-Up Range is something like 7'000 ft. And with a loft angle of 0°, Release Range = Pull-Up Range. It didn't help that the respective WRCS input is also described as "Release Range Control" in the manual...
With this I am able to put bombs into the target area using LABS LOFT with Target Find/WRCS integration.
Now the only question I have left is whether WRCS mode for Pave Spike should remain unavailable in LABS LOFT even when this delivery mode is integrated with Target Find.
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@Heatblur: Is the Release Range output in the Bombing Table for Loft taking into account the distance covered by the aircraft during the pullup or is this just the bomb ballistic range? The latter would explain pretty much match the error I am seeing.
AIM-9P Fin Size
in Object Bugs
Posted
This has bothered me for many years, but it doesn't seem like this has ever been reported. The AIM-9P missile family (P, P3, P5, RB-24J) forward fin is oversized.
Compared to the AIM-9J, which should have the same fins and which seem correct in DCS:
For reference here is the a real AIM-9P: