Long, and I mean, LONG loading times

~S

At the very first I was scared my game wouldn't load (see here). But now I've been playing it for a few times with some mates, I come/came to notice my game takes an aweful long time to load :huh:??? The game itself (mp-mode), loading the actual mission, after hitting 'fly' and also 'refly'. takes about 5, 3, 2, 2 mins respectively (timed it :P)

These mates I've been flying with have a very similar like hardware setup as I do, yet they load almost instantly on all things mentioned?!?!

The only main difference is: THEY got the download version and I have the DVD version

Any ideas please on what might be causing this lóóóóóóóóóng loading times???

Tnx in advance as usual :thumbup:

~S

Winney

System specs:

Windows Vista Home Premium x64 SP1

Intel Core2Duo 8500

Nvidia GTX285 (drivers 182.50)

2x2Gigs PC2-6400 CL4 RAM

DCS: Black Shark DVD, English-version

I would estimate my loading times to be around 40-60 seconds, from main menu into a mission or training. I've got 2 raptors in stripe (raid 0), so it should be quick. Should.

I also have the DVD, UK/EU version.

Curious tough - what do you mean by "almost instantly"? 2 seconds? 10 seconds?

Like Panzertard hinted at, you could look at HDD speed and fragmentation. If your HDD is slow and fragmented the reading head can have a proper hell trying to find and read all parts of all the files needed to boot up the game. Regular look with windows defrag should be able to establish that, though.

You could also take a look (through process manager) to see how much of your system RAM is used immediately after booting Windows, just to see if there's something hogging memory.

Is it that long in single player as well?

hello, it was like that with my old system. While I bought a new system to cure it, I found you can use the Crash Recovery option (which I never use) to get back into the mission in the fastest time.

Curious tough - what do you mean by "almost instantly"? 2 seconds? 10 seconds?

Well, starting the multi-player mode, they see the little splash screen in some 5-10 secs. For me, this one takes the most time, about 2 mins! And then staring at this little thing for about 3 mins. I was telling a friend of mine on comms when I started the MPicon and when I was actually in the menu, his response: "It took you that long to get to the menu???" Then in a mission when I died, and want to 'refly' again it takes me about 2 mins staring at the mission briefing screen before I enter the cockpit again. For them it's just about instantly. This aggrevates the s... out of me:joystick:

I don't understand these huge loadtime differences.

hello, it was like that with my old system. While I bought a new system to cure it, I found you can use the Crash Recovery option (which I never use) to get back into the mission in the fastest time.

@EtherealN: My hdd runs at 7200 and has a 32MB cache, and is far from fully stuffed (partition(s)). I could check for fragmentations, but why would it install 'fragmented'??

System seems running ok, no dodgy processes, no excessive memory usage, just 'all systems go' basically?!?!

Something else maybe of interest in this case...

When I crash or wanna bail, I'm getting a screenfreeze of about 3 secs????? Doesn't happen when other players in the game crash or bail and looking at them?!??!

~S

Winney

As a small aside, it is not only the rotation speed that governs disk speed - density of the platters on the drive also play part. (I saw some tests of WD's 2TB "GreenPower" HDD, and even though it rotated below 5400rpm it's data throughput did beat many performance drives, due to higher data density.) It being a 32mb Cache disc should make it quite recent so it should be allright.

Vista will usually run defrag automatically at set intervals anyhow, so you could as a general maintenance thing just doublecheck that it does that. Sounds like it probably won't solve this problem but it can save you from issues in the future.

If there's no signs of the RAM being overloaded with work, no parasiting processes... Nothing like that... Then I truly don't know what could cause this behaviour. Sorry. :(

Just reinstalled the whole thing hoping it would resolve the problem. but NO :cry:

While my game was loading! I had enough time to dig in this forum and I've noticed there's more people facing the exact same issues. eg.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=40601

I think it's funny everyone is almost directly pointing at the hdd?!?!?!? Why's that???

Then, as for my rig goes, I got this one for only 4 months now and succeed the recommended specs. easily.

Then I'm reading that the download version was coded for faster loading?!?!? WT. :huh: This will do make sense thou, since my game buddies on similar rigs got the d/l version. I feel robbed :mad:

I know you guys have been helpful in finding the cure, but.... I'm loosing my temper! I don't want to wait f*****g 10 mins before I can join my buds.

Like I just said, I feel robbed by buying this boxed version!!!

Any of Dev.Team reading these issues and has something to say on it?

~S

Winney

I think it's funny everyone is almost directly pointing at the hdd?!?!?!? Why's that???

That is because the HDD is the bottleneck when loading anything into memory. Processor, FSB, PCIe bus, memory bus, RAM - all of it is orders of magnitude faster than the HDD.

If the HDD then has a problem, be it physical wear and tear, fragmentation, faulty components or a host of other things, you can get all kinds of fun stuff to happen to cause long loading times. It's also the only component involved that has any moving parts.

And basically, if unmaintained all HDD's will slow down. Everything from worn bearings to simple data fragmentation can cause that. Last night I inserted an old HDD from an old computer into this machine, and even though it had 15% free space, the longest continuous free space was ~600 kilobyte. That was one hell of a fragmented drive and boy was it slow until I allowed Vista to sit and defrag it for a couple of hours.

Conversely, the normal tear on transistor/capacitor-based components like our processors, RAMsticks and so on is that individual components burn out. In the case of RAM, this can be completely unnoticed for a looong time on a normal home PC, since it is only when that sector on the stick is used that it causes a problem (and then it can do all kinds of fun stuff, from CTD's to proper BSODs).

Another thing that can cause slowdowns is overheating, causing motherboards equipped with the feature to start speedstepping - that is, they'll start cancelling cycles in order to reduce the flow of electricity and thereby reduce the heat. This can have dramatic effects on performance, but in the case where I have seen it (a laptop of mine was giving some 90 degrees C at idle... doesn't need much load to get it to the stepping threshold then) the effect was dramatic enough that it doesn't fit your problem description - then it should be so heavy an effect that you can barely move your mouse...

So when a problem like yours comes up, it's either something software related in the application, drivers or OS, or if it's hardware, the only candidate I can think of is the HDD - either through component failure or fragmentation or both. But then it should affect a lot more than just DCS.

Leaves software as a candidate cause, but I really have a hard time figuring that out.

Then, as for my rig goes, I got this one for only 4 months now and succeed the recommended specs. easily.

Well, the point is that if it is hardware that is causing this, the effect is dramatic enough that it's not so much a case of failing the specs, it's a case of a component being broken. This can be caused by anything from a failure in QA at a component manufacturer to rough handling by a vendor or distributor or user or anyone that's come into contact with the machine.

But as mentioned, if it's hardware it should be a wide effect that slams down on everything that is similar.

Then I'm reading that the download version was coded for faster loading?!?!? WT. :huh: This will do make sense thou, since my game buddies on similar rigs got the d/l version. I feel robbed :mad:

Source? 'cause I suspect someone's been talking crap...

As far as I know the two are identical - down to the level where there is no disc-check. The DVD "version" only has a different distribution medium, that's the only difference I've ever heard of.

Source? 'cause I suspect someone's been talking crap...

 

As far as I know the two are identical - down to the level where there is no disc-check. The DVD "version" only has a different distribution medium, that's the only difference I've ever heard of.

Which version of BS are you guys running? (Russian d/l, Russian dvd, English d/l etc)

 

I have a 4-5 minute load time on my old p4 3.0, 2gb ram, 256mb, 7600gs xp sp3 machine. Using russian d/l version.

 

I read that the Eagle Dynamics English d/l was coded with a faster load time.

 

Also, I guess you have tried turning off some of the background windows junk? Sounds there is a conflict somewhere...

 

I think a five minute wait is a long time...10 would send me crazier.

 

Cheers!

Like the people facing the problem, all other applications run fine, but dcs :( So me thinks this fact already throws the hdd issue right in the bin?!

Then there's one way to find out any differences between d/l and boxed... Yet, I am not gonna also gonna pay for the download version.

~S

Winney

PS: Aren't we all missing out on something? Isn't there a configuration file which needs some tweaking or something??

It's in the one topic I linked to. I got to admit it sounds too weird to be true, yet not impossible and COULD explain a lot.

Found it now. It is too weird to be true, simply because there is no code difference that I have ever heard of between the DVD and D/L versions. From what I understand, the install routine is even identical, there is no difference between their DRM solution, there is no DVD-check or reading of information from the DVD...

The only difference I have ever heard anything of from anyone authoritative (do note that the mention in that thread was an unsourced statement from a regular member) is that the DVD version is delivered on a DVD, and of course that the DVD contains some extra freebies that remove the need to download stuff like the Producer's Notes and so on.

Like the people facing the problem, all other applications run fine, but dcs :( So me thinks this fact already throws the hdd issue right in the bin?!

Most likely, yes.

Then there's one way to find out any differences between d/l and boxed... Yet, I am not gonna also gonna pay for the download version.

There's a lot of people out there that do own both - some even three versions (Russian DVD, English D/L, English DVD). I have never seen any of them indicate such a difference.

PS: Aren't we all missing out on something? Isn't there a configuration file which needs some tweaking or something??

There might be, but I am unsure of what it would be.

My personal guess, if it is a software issue, would be that there is something in the system that is causing a delay. For example, I would assume that StarForce ProActive polls the hardware on every start (to see if it's a new install on new hardware). If your system is somehow set up to intercept this polling (check Windows Defender, it might be that it makes a false-positive on it), the game might get stuck waiting for clearance.

However, I am not sure how that would cause the issue to arise on every mission, which it is my understanding that it does.

It could also be related to loading of graphics DLLs, if some other resource in the system is using those DLLs there might be something causing the game to not get them loaded.

Something you could do is to run Process Explorer (free software) at the same time as you start a mission, and monitor it as the various dlls and driver packages get loaded. I would wager that it is some one dll loading that gets stuck for some reason.

Have you attempted to start a mission with all peripherals disconnected? Remove absolutely everything that might cause a problem - even the joystick - and if possible switch to as standard a keyboard and mouse as you possibly can. IF that causes it to load faster, plug one more piece of hardware in and try again.

But do see if you can find out anything from Process Explorer first. If, f.ex, it's a sound-related subsystem that would be discovered by Process Explorer as stalling the system it would be a shame if you had first spent hours unplugging and plugging peripherals.

EDIT

One more thing just struck me - you could also check whether your swap file balloons when you start a mission. It could be that some memory management routine is doing something funky, causing the relevant files to first be written to swap. That would mean first reading the files from HDD to memory and then immediately writing them to HDD swap file again for use as fake RAM. If this happens to you then it would definitely serve to explain slow loading, and should definitely be fixable.

I read about this problem, and just wanted to mention I have the DVD version and it loads very quickly. I am running RAID 1, but I have seperate OS/Program partitions. I installed BS on the program partition. My system partition was defragged recently. I have 4 gigs of RAM. Being an IT guy I would definitely recommend defragging your partition(s) and see if that helps. It could also be the swap file. Don't use a fixed size swap file- that's not necessary any more. I am running 32 bit XP, not sure if 64 would make a difference. I have a dual-boot Vista system but haven't tried it on that. Like was mentioned above, open task manager and check the CPU, swap file, and disk access when loading a mission. I don't think Starforce has anything to do with it.

*I realized it's not installed on my RAID, it's on a seperate 500 gig SATA drive. I have read more and it seems defragging doesn't help most people. Someone mentioned a program called cacheman that helped. It seems alot of people are experiencing the problem on x64 bit OSes. Could that be the issue?

Much thanx to y'all, really! I was just about done with this sim really (I guess you could figure that on my intonation in my last post :smilewink:) You guys keep coming up with suggestions! Much appreciated and I think worth mentioning!

So, here's: ~S

Still I think it's unheard of user(s) need to go 'tweak' their system, or even download and install additional utilities to be able to run this game/sim properly (well, once it's finally done loading here, it runs fine though). I think this is even unacceptable. You almost need to be a computer geek to install and play this product :huh:

No, defragging didn't help for me. I turned off pagefile/swapfile, didn't help.

• I 'll try and see if I can be fust to go ahead and do the 'software/hardware checks' EtherealN suggested. If still no dice...
  
• What's the story on locations to install BS on? I mean, partition/hdd wise. Yes, I have BS installed on the same partition as my OS (WinVista64). I somewhat read in between the lines this MIGHT also? be a problem??? I only got 1 hdd, divided into 4 partitions.
  
• Then, what about RAID thing? I know it's there, but that's beyond my knowledge and IF this might be the solution I need someone to guide me through this.
  
• If I have to reinstall again... I again use up another activation/deactivation, what's the story on this?
  

~S

Winney

You guys keep coming up with suggestions! Much appreciated and I think worth mentioning!

My pleasure, really - I want to find out what it is that's causing that issue.

Still I think it's unheard of user(s) need to go 'tweak' their system, or even download and install additional utilities to be able to run this game/sim properly.

Not really. I mean, most people here haven't really tweaked their systems at all, though it is true that most of us use DCSMax to boost performance. But I would point out that a lot of the fixes for some obscure problems in several other games I've played like STALKER (both of them) and Empire have involved all kinds of arcane weird stuff to fix - and in some cases simply the installation of beta updates to Windows. But even with those it was a minority that had to do that, and same here really.

You almost need to be a computer geek to install and play this product :huh:

Well, depends. Install and play is pretty simple IMO. However, when there is a problem it does require some knowledge of the system - but that's not different to any other game.

What's the story on locations to install BS on? I mean, partition/hdd wise. Yes, I have BS installed on the same partition as my OS (WinVista64). I somewhat read in between the lines this MIGHT also? be a problem??? I only got 1 hdd, divided into 4 partitions.

The times when I've seen it being a problem, it has been when it's installed into C:\Program Files(x86)\ and similar. From what I've gathered, some security settings in windows can then cause the game to not gain access rights to it's own folder structure - with obvious troubles as a result. Those problems were usually of the crash variety though.

If I have to reinstall again... I again use up another activation/deactivation, what's the story on this?

No, as long as the hardware is identical and you have not reinstalled windows, there will be no activation used.

(Haven't done anything to try and trace down the problem yet, but...)

Just a quick response on my end.

UAC (User acces control?) is something I turned off immediately when I started using Vista. This thing got me all f*ck*d up, why is it even in there??!?! (thats a different discussion:P)

Does this 'cancel' out the accessability you're talking about??

~S

Winney

EDIT:

Gonna do the Process Explorer thing. What am I looking at and what should I be looking for?

I'm a bit uncertain on whether it can cause an issue - I always had it active on my systems.

The reason it's there is that it basically informs you as a user - and requests permission - anytime an application wants to do something that requires more than user-level rights. This can be stuff like manipulating drivers or registry and so on. This is good because if you run an application that should not be wanting to do something like that but does so anyway, you are able to deny it the ability to do so and then investigate it for possible trojan infection and suchlike.

I don't think running without UAC should be able to cause a slow-down, but it is a variable that you can test, just in case. Sometimes things go wonky in systems as complex as a modern OS and they start doing things that they really shouldn't be able to do.

With the Process Explorer, you should be able to see each DLL and such system thing that DCS calls as it loads up the DCS.exe, and it is my theory (right now anyway) that one of those things it calls doesn't work right for some reason. I would expect something akin to most things loading up real quick, and then you'll have one thing that sits there for a long time.

I'll run it together with my DCS in a moment and see if I can give you some more specific guidance.

Allright, procedure followed with Process Explorer:

1) Start it (obviously)

2) At the top, there's a bunch of icons. 5th from the left activates the lowere pane.

3) Button to the right of that sets the lower pane to show handles or DLLs. Select DLLs.

4) Start application.

I started DCSMax, and found it in the upper window. I maximized that and also found TrackIR.exe below it, indicating that DCSMax.exe started TrackIR as I have it set to do. I select it for now in the upper window.

5) I start DCS through DcsMax, Launcher.exe arrives under the DcsMax.exe in the upper window. When I then select the DCS.exe process I can see the associated DLLs.

I recommend going to Options > Difference Highlight Duration, and extend that. This highlights newly loaded stuff in the DLL window with various colors. (You can see what means what in the "Configure Highlighting" option.)

I've been trying to get it to sort them in the order that they get loaded, but have so far failed in that. However, it did seem that the last one to load was lua-direct_output.dll, located at C:\Games\BlackShark\bin\stable\ in my case. (Right-click can open information.)

So far it is impossible to say if there is anything significant to read into that, I suspect there isn't. But that's the basics and I'll return if I manage to come up with a way to see them in the load order.

Have you used the affinity trick?

I managed to get Process explorer to display the DLL's in the order they were loaded, roughly - through setting the sorting to one type of tab (say, signer), and then removing that column. Then it had nothing to sort for and seemed to be sorting as they came.

And GG, that's so easy that if that's what's going on I think I'll commit harakiri for my retardedness right here and now. :P

Tried the PE thing, I couldn't read it, I mean, like I said, I didn't (don't) know what to look for and even what I was (am) looking at. So I went the 'old school way'

LOONG process, took me most of my evening :( Yet, I converged to the cause!!!!!!!!!!!

SKYPE

When on the computer I am just about ALWAYS on comms on skype all the time. So I'm so used to that that I hardly even notice it's running :doh: Yet this s*x b*lls bigtime, cause I use skype for comms with my mates...

Just FYI ATM I'm using Skype 4.0.0.206. I am also using onboard sound on my Asus P5Q-E MB, drivers: SoundMAX 6.10.2.6480

Skype 'idle' is no problem. When on the 'phone' with someone... BS Loadtimes tripples/'quadreles'!!

Any way to cure it other than NOT using Skype :smilewink:??

~S

Winney

PS: I'll see if there's a newer version of both, Skype and the driver. Keep you informed on this.

PS2: What is DCSMAX????

EDIT:

Just did the easiest I could do, updated Skype to version 4.0.0.226. Fingers crossed, knock on wood, roll yer thumbs, ... whatever that gives ya good luck, but I tried it briefly after updating just Skype and... badaboombadabang. Nice loadtimes :) SO I guess that (already 'funny' version of) Skype seems the dang cause of all this!

NO Wrong... tho it was running I wasnt on comms anymore... so... dang...

Yes, use teamspeak. Man. SKype for coms? Skype is HEAVY.

Interesting! Yeah, have to agree, use Teamspeak- It's meant for gaming. Skype is a POS. I used to have a Teamspeak server, but when I left my job I had to shut it down. Are there any public TS servers for BS?

Winney, for your information - I just flew some MP tonight, over internet.

2 players only, both of us with UK DVD. No problems here, I would say we loaded up in 20-30 seconds.

Interesting! Yeah, have to agree, use Teamspeak- It's meant for gaming. Skype is a POS. I used to have a Teamspeak server, but when I left my job I had to shut it down. Are there any public TS servers for BS?

Plenty. Google http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=teamspeak+free+server&meta=

I know TS. With lack of knowledge of any better, I was ok with it 5, 6 years ago when we were with quite a bunch of guys. Yet the gang got smaller and smaller and we all hung out together to b*llsh*t with eachother, we played different games and most of all got tired of the push-to-talk thing as well as the crap sound quality.

So, it lead to us using Skype (yes, we knew its a heavy thing and not really 'useful' for the purpose we use it, yet we do, cause we like the quality and funny enough we like the hot mic :D)

It never caused issues, nor with my mates (they must've gotten the latest version me thinks)

Anyway, another bugger tracked down. Took awhile and a lot of aggrevations... a hard learned lesson :smartass:

~S all

Winney (so far a happy Winney :megalol:)