DCS WW2 fighter comparison

[otto]

Mr Friedrich.

 

If the germans had at least some C3 fuel.

And there are lots of 109s with C3 painted on them.

 

Would it not seem logical that at least some of them were indeed loaded with c3 fuel ?

[Zunzun]

In the fading days of III Reich logic was scarce.

Anyhow, seems a little bit unfair that not the same degree of evidence is asked to the allies compared to the Luftwaffe in order to prove the use of higher boost.

[MiloMorai]

http://kurfurst.org/Engine/Boostclearances/605D_clearance198.html

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2099002&postcount=128

 

Please note the deliberate editing for III./JG27 in the first link.

 

There is further conflict where Kurfurst says in one of his articles:

 

III./JG 27 - Bf 109 K and some 109 Gs

III./JG 53 - Bf 109 K and some 109 Gs

IV./JG 53 - Bf 109 K and some 109 Gs

[Kurfürst]

It shows conclusively that a C3 triangle was no indication of what fuel was being used, although Kurfurst tried to use these images to somehow prove that C3 and 1.98 ata MUST have been used by K-4s.

 

How? You are back to pure rhetoric without any evidence again.

 

A picture that you claim is that of a K-4 from 11./JG 77 supposedly taken in November 1944 and a document from four months later (by which time Jg 77 transferred to the East) dated 19 March 1945 showing the fuel and type allocation on that day proves "conclusively" EXACTLY HOW the completely different (and relevant to discussion) Gruppen of JG 27 and 53 were not using e not using C-3 fuel ... ?

 

There is not the slightest logic I can perceive in that, only random facts placed next to each other.

 

So now we have a claim that G-10s and G-14/As used 1.98 ata although the one extract of a document from a secondary source doesn't mention that any G-10/G-14/AS units were cleared to use 1.98 ata.

 

Its not a claim, its a fact.

 

Nope, II./JG 52 is listed in OKL, GdJ-Grp. Qu-, Br. B. Nr. 1561/45 g.Kdos under II. / JG 52 Bf 109 G-14/U4 K-4 nachschubmäßig K-4 as deliveries permit but it is not listed as one of the four units that was supposed to switch to using 1.98 ata and neither was II./JG 51 which was on the Eastern Front. The image proves nothing.

 

The images, crash reports and archive text prove that the use of C-3 fuel in late war Bf 109s was quite common.

 

As already noted 109s on the Eastern also front had C3 triangles, thus the ground crews of those units were also out of their minds and painting them on for no reason, no reason at all...

 

Its becoming a more and more interesting thesis over time.

 

Do you have any evidence of

 

(i) C-3 not being available to the 109 units concerned or that

(ii) the 109 units concerned refused to carry out their operational orders to increase manifold pressure to 1.98ata?

(iii) or evidence of combat use of +25 lbs boost on Mk IXs in 1945?

(iv) or evidence of combat use of +21 lbs boost on Mk XIVs in 1945?

[JtD]

It has been done, some eight years ago.

 

Well, please provide the links to these argumentations. I for one have never seen pilot statements confirming the use of 1.98 ata or Gruppe logs that confirm the engine modifications. All I know are well documented plans, some technical feasibility studies and field studies with mixed outcomes, plus some poor quality (i.e. mostly secondary) sources indicating the outcome was positive because there were further plans. I've never seen any confirmation - but I've seen other 1945 plans about hundreds of submarines and thousands of aircraft to be produced.

 

Like I said, Mike lost that argument long time ago.

I don't care. I also don't care if it was Jimmy who stole Jonny's gummy bear. I've outgrown kindergarten for a long time. I care about facts. So - do you care to share facts or is this such a personal issue that only Mike, Neil, Milo and Friedrich may know? Edited July 2, 2014 by JtD

[Pikey]

Never read a thread where so many ideas were lost on so many ears by so few.

[rubblebeam]

These kinds of threads are why flight Sims will never be mainstream. Everybody has read a book somewhere and has taken it as gospel.

[MiloMorai]

Also note that II./JG 11 is operating at C-3 and 1,98ata on the Eastern front (II/JG 11 was stationed near Berlin).

Zellhausen

(GER) (50 01 00 N – 09 00 40 E)

General

: operational airfield (Einsatzhafen I) in Hesse 24.5 km ESE of

Frankfurt/Main, 13 km WNW of Aschaffenburg and 1.2 km E of Zellhausen village.

3 Apr 45: Aschaffenburg-Zellhausen area taken by U.S. 7th Army

Operational Units

: II./KG 53 (May-Jun 40); III./KG 55 (Aug-Sep 44);

TGr. 30 (Aug 44 – Mar 45); II./KG 55 (Sep 44); II./JG 11 (Dec 44 –Jan 45)

 

LOL, someone made a comment about anothers geographic expertise.:music_whistling:

 

Frankfurt is ~260mi SW of Berlin

[USARStarkey]

http://kurfurst.org/Engine/Boostclearances/605D_clearance198.html

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2099002&postcount=128

 

Please note the deliberate editing for III./JG27 in the first link.

 

There is further conflict where Kurfurst says in one of his articles:

 

III./JG 27 - Bf 109 K and some 109 Gs

III./JG 53 - Bf 109 K and some 109 Gs

IV./JG 53 - Bf 109 K and some 109 Gs

 

Aside from the deliberate editing, it should be evident to anyone reading either these links that the information provided are not orders issued to units to statements of intent. These pages do not prove the use of 1.98ata any more that they prove the replacement of K-4's with jet fighters, or any of the other speculated improvements. For example, by the time This order was supposedly given, at least one of the units Kurfurst thinks used 1.98ata had effectively ceased to exist.

 

John Weal wrote of JG 27, the principal Me 109 unit in the Spitfire XIV's main area of operations, during 1945:

 

As one of the few Jagdgeschwader remaining on the western front (the majority having been rushed eastwards in a vain attempt to repel the Red tide), JG 27's activities were curtailed by a new OKL directive severely restricting fighter operations in the west. This permitted missions to be flown "only in those situations promising a real chance of success". Also many of the Geschwader's ground personnel were now being transferred to infantry duties. 46

 

Despite their best efforts, however, so overwhelming was the enemy's air superiority over north-west Germany by mid-March 1945 that all four Gruppen were ordered to retire from their bases in the Osnabrück region and withdraw nearer to the centre of the rapidly shrinking Reich. During the third week of March Stab, I., II. and III./JG 27 departed Rheine, Hopsten and Hesepe as instructed. But fate overtook Hauptmann Reinert's IV Gruppe before it could evacuate Achmer... 180 B-24's targeted Achmer, and the strafing by fighters which followed, destroyed all but one of IV./JG 27's 38 remaining fighters. ... It was considered impracticable to re-equip the Gruppe amid the chaos that was Germany in the last six weeks of the war. At the end of March IV./JG 27 was therefore officially disbanded. 47

Edited July 2, 2014 by USARStarkey

[Altflieger]

So far no one has presented any evidence that 1.98ata with C3 and MW50 wasn't used. Why install a 25 gallon MW tank in every 109 made, including those fitted with DC engines? Why have a Motor Karte for the DB605DC published 1 Dec. 1944 clearly stating 1.98ata was possible and then say it wasn't used?

[MiloMorai]

B4 + MW50 was used on 109s

[USARStarkey]

So far no one has presented any evidence that 1.98ata with C3 and MW50 wasn't used. Why install a 25 gallon MW tank in every 109 made, including those fitted with DC engines? Why have a Motor Karte for the DB605DC published 1 Dec. 1944 clearly stating 1.98ata was possible and then say it wasn't used?

 

 

I could go into more detail on your logic here, but ill make it simple.

 

It is not logical, especially historically, to assume something is a fact just because you cannot prove it isnt. I could assume you are a sapient swamp wallaby, since I don't have any proof you aren't one, for example.

[Friedrich-4B]

Mr Friedrich.

 

If the germans had at least some C3 fuel.

And there are lots of 109s with C3 painted on them.

 

Would it not seem logical that at least some of them were indeed loaded with c3 fuel ?

 

I have no doubt that some 109s used C3 fuel; what is at fault is the constant implication that C3 triangles somehow magically indicated that C3 plus MW50 and 1.98 ata was being used.

 

How? You are back to pure rhetoric without any evidence again.

 

Let's take a look at his article again http://kurfurst.org/Engine/Boostclearances/605D_clearance198.html and see how Kurfurst's logic works:

 

* Right below the transcript of a partial document from a secondary source showing that a mere four Gruppen of 109 units were supposed to start using 1.98 ata, Kurfurst goes on to claim:

The other units effected are not known at present, but given the abundance of photograph depicting G-10 and K-4 fighters belonging to other units, marked for C-3 fuel use - a likely sign of the DC engine at 1,98 ata - the boost increase was likely not limited to JG 27 and JG 53 alone.

 

http://kurfurst.org/Engine/Boostclearances/605D_clearance198.html

 

Yet, as can be seen from the list of units on the eastern front, dated 19 March 1945, one day before Nr. 1561/45 g.Kdos, all of the rest of the 109 units listed in Nr. 1561/45 g.Kdos, were limited to B4 fuel.

 

http://kurfurst.org/Operations/1945_Ausrustungderjagdverbanden_Lflotte6/Luftflotte6.html

 

So on one page of his site Kurfurst made a rhetorical claim that is contradicted by a document posted on another page of his own site...

[tempestglen]

11lbs boost Tempy on 100/130fuel was regular in late 1944, am I right?

[Friedrich-4B]

Despite their best efforts, however, so overwhelming was the enemy's air superiority over north-west Germany by mid-March 1945 that all four Gruppen were ordered to retire from their bases in the Osnabrück region and withdraw nearer to the centre of the rapidly shrinking Reich. During the third week of March Stab, I., II. and III./JG 27 departed Rheine, Hopsten and Hesepe as instructed. But fate overtook Hauptmann Reinert's IV Gruppe before it could evacuate Achmer... 180 B-24's targeted Achmer, and the strafing by fighters which followed, destroyed all but one of IV./JG 27's 38 remaining fighters. ... It was considered impracticable to re-equip the Gruppe amid the chaos that was Germany in the last six weeks of the war. At the end of March IV./JG 27 was therefore officially disbanded. 47

 

To be fair IV./JG 27 isn't one of the units slated to use 1.98 ata. The point about the near obliteration of some units is valid; another page from Messerschmitt Bf 109 im Einsatz by Zobel and Mathmann shows that by 26 April 1945 III. and IV./JG53 in Luftkommando West had twelve 109G/Ks between them: also notable is the fact that none of the remaining Luftwaffe Kommando West units are listed as being equipped solely with 109Ks, while JG 27 is not listed at all.

 

[MiloMorai]

There is an aviation expert (??) that states that no unauthorized modifications can be made to German a/c. As there is only 4 Gruppen authorized to modify their a/c so 1.98ata can be used, any other 109 unit can't modify their a/c to use 1.98ata.

[USARStarkey]

To be fair IV./JG 27 isn't one of the units slated to use 1.98 ata. The point about the near obliteration of some units is valid; another page from Messerschmitt Bf 109 im Einsatz by Zobel and Mathmann shows that by 26 April 1945 III. and IV./JG53 in Luftkommando West had twelve 109G/Ks between them: also notable is the fact that none of the remaining Luftwaffe Kommando West units are listed as being equipped solely with 109Ks, while JG 27 is not listed at all.

 

 

Ah yes, it appears I misread that. However, like you said, the overall point is valid. The only document that even hints at the use of 1.98ata is an incomplete one. The thing that keeps being missed by certain persons here is that it is clear that the document is merely a statement of an ideal situation at best. This "order" wasn't issued until 20 March 1945. A month after this was put out, the war was over. Even if this was a operational order telling these units to convert, which it is not, we have no reason to believe that it was actually carried out. Modifications would have to have been carried out, and given the game of hop-scotch the Luftwaffe was playing with the ever shrinking front line, and the casualties it was taking, it is improbable that anyone found the time or resources to actually do this. More to the point, there are no operational records of 1.98ata being used, which seems to be lost on people.

 

 

The development in the equipment status of day fighter units is based on the standard types laid down in the emergency program and anticipates :

 

for Bf 109 units : K-4

for FW 190 units : D-9, D-12 with changeover to Ta 152 H

and C

 

With the arrival of the Ta 152 and it`s assignment to FW 190 Gruppen will result in an improvement in the equipment status of these units.

 

Bf 109 development will essentially conclude with the K-4 and will inevitably lead to the conversion of Bf 109 units - those not scheduled for disbandment - to jet fighters. Homogeneity of the Geschwader is urgent to be strived for, combination of similar types is temporary and because of the levels of production to be accepted .

 

Above, going off of kurfurst's own translation, it is quite apparent that this is a theoretical statement of possible intent, not a directive to change anything.

[MiloMorai]

IV./JG53 was disbanded 30-4-45.

[tempestglen]

I wonder how is DCS Dora compared to these? I prefer the red line more suitable for 1944 Dora which is vs 11lbs tempy.

 

 

Edited July 3, 2014 by tempestglen

[Kurfürst]

1st Lt. Tobak of the 101. Vadászezred recalled in his memoirs that the regiment received new aircraft, the G-10 or as they nicknamed it the Fat Messer, because of the enlarged engine hood. The power of the engine was 2000 HP at 8000 m (sic).

 

Egy-két perc múlva már a régi barakkban, a nagy készültségi szobában voltunk. Az első megdermedt pillanatokat harsány örömrivalgás követte. Aztán félórás beszélgetés során sok mindent megtudtam. A lényeg: amolyan vihar előtti csend van. Új gépeket kapott az ezred, a G—10-esek beceneve „Kövér Messzer", mert nagyobb a kompresszoruk meg a motordekli, vagyis a motorháztető. A légcsavarlapátok is szélesebbek, nagyobb az oldalkormány is. A motor maximális teljesítménye 8000 méteren 2000 LE, de a fiúk szerint 6000-ig jobb lenne egy Fritz — az „F" jelű sorozatból — vagy a Győrben gyártott G—6-osok.

 

He put his new plane, a G-10/U4, into good use in March 21, 1945 west of Veszprém (near Lake Balaton, Hungary), shooting down a Yakovlev fighter in hard turning fight at 6000 m. (Lt. Tobak gave full throttle and then throttled back not to overshoot the target, while he was completely blacking out in the turn - ie. a 5+ g turn - at a firing range of 30 meters using the MK 108 3 cm cannon. The Yakovlev was hit and disintegrated into three pieces.

 

Olyan közel már a bevetési légtér, hogy a 6000 métert Veszprémtől nyugatra spirálozva vagyunk kénytelenek elérni. Állítólag pirkadattól nyüzsögnek a gépek a Balaton akarattyai sarka fölött. Nagyon jó a látás, nincs egyenletes felhőalap, csak itt-ott magas szintű felhősávok. Befutunk a bevetési légtérbe 7000 m magasságban, finoman nyomjuk, kb. 700 km/óra így a sebességünk. Kettes, hármas varióval vesztjük a magasságot és kinézzük a szemünket. Nem telik el 20 perc, egyszerre hárman ordítunk a rádióba: —

 

"Drótkefe, vigyázz! Jobbra előttünk három órában gépek! — ez Holéczy Dani, de rögtön visítja valaki: — Jakok! — Három Jakot látok, majdnem szembejönnek velünk. Szembetámadást várok, de nem. A jobb szélső balra kitér és szintben marad, a másik kettő leborít. Ilyen is ritkán van! Találkozás azonos pozícióban és mi vagyunk létszámfölényben. — Dani, a jobb szélsőre megyek! — mondom, Dani annyit felel: — Jó! Teljes gáz! — A távolság a szintben kitérő Jak—9-es és köztem egyre csökken. Kissé nyomja. Távolság 200, rövid sorozatot lövök a 13 mm-esekkel, a távolság már csak 100 méter. Észreveszi a sorozatomat és rendkívül élesen jobb felhúzott fordulóba kezd. Jól látom a felségjelét és vörösre festett csőrét. Le kell kapnom egy pillanatra a gázt, hogy túl ne lőjek rajta, mert akkor szerepeink megcserélődnének, én lennék elöl, ő pedig hátul. Távolság már csak 50 méter. Pokolian szűkít, szinte eléri a saját farkát, távolság 30 méter, a revikör fekete, a próbasorozat a farka mögött szalad el. Csak géppuskázok egyelőre, de olyan szűken fordul, hogy alig látok a gyorsulástól. Egy pillanat alatt átfut az agyamon, hogy még rá kell húznom a gépem orrát, hogy teljesen eltakarjam, csak úgy találhatom el. Ha kések, meglóg, vagy — rosszabb esetben — ő lesz az üldöző. Ne mondja senki, hogy a Messzer 6000-en rosszul fordul! Teljesen elfeketedek, amikor meghúzom a botkormányt és nyomom a háromcentis ágyú gombját! A látásom visszatér, és látom, sőt érzem a robbanást előttem! Belefut a gépem — szerencsére csak az apró törmelékbe. Oldalt kinézve látom, hogy az az előbb még oly szép repülőgép három darabra válva, lángolva pörög lefelé . .."

 

See also the picture below from Janda-Poruba: Messerschmitt Bf 109G-10/U4 Production & Operational Service. It appears JG 27 and 53 were not the only ones running at 1,98 ata :)

Edited July 3, 2014 by Kurfürst

[Friedrich-4B]

1st Lt. Tobak of the 101. Vadászezred recalled in his memoirs that the regiment received new aircraft, the G-10 or as they nicknamed it the Fat Messer, because of the enlarged engine hood. The power of the engine was 2000 HP at 8000 m (sic).

 

Egy-két perc múlva már a régi barakkban, a nagy készültségi szobában voltunk. Az első megdermedt pillanatokat harsány örömrivalgás követte. Aztán félórás beszélgetés során sok mindent megtudtam. A lényeg: amolyan vihar előtti csend van. Új gépeket kapott az ezred, a G—10-esek beceneve „Kövér Messzer", mert nagyobb a kompresszoruk meg a motordekli, vagyis a motorháztető. A légcsavarlapátok is szélesebbek, nagyobb az oldalkormány is. A motor maximális teljesítménye 8000 méteren 2000 LE, de a fiúk szerint 6000-ig jobb lenne egy Fritz — az „F" jelű sorozatból — vagy a Győrben gyártott G—6-osok.

 

He put his new plane, a G-10/U4, into good use in March 21, 1945 west of Veszprém (near Lake Balaton, Hungary), shooting down a Yakovlev fighter in hard turning fight at 6000 m. (Lt. Tobak gave full throttle and then throttled back not to overshoot the target, while he was completely blacking out in the turn - ie. a 5+ g turn - at a firing range of 30 meters using the MK 108 3 cm cannon. The Yakovlev was hit and disintegrated into three pieces.

 

Olyan közel már a bevetési légtér, hogy a 6000 métert Veszprémtől nyugatra spirálozva vagyunk kénytelenek elérni. Állítólag pirkadattól nyüzsögnek a gépek a Balaton akarattyai sarka fölött. Nagyon jó a látás, nincs egyenletes felhőalap, csak itt-ott magas szintű felhősávok. Befutunk a bevetési légtérbe 7000 m magasságban, finoman nyomjuk, kb. 700 km/óra így a sebességünk. Kettes, hármas varióval vesztjük a magasságot és kinézzük a szemünket. Nem telik el 20 perc, egyszerre hárman ordítunk a rádióba: —

 

"Drótkefe, vigyázz! Jobbra előttünk három órában gépek! — ez Holéczy Dani, de rögtön visítja valaki: — Jakok! — Három Jakot látok, majdnem szembejönnek velünk. Szembetámadást várok, de nem. A jobb szélső balra kitér és szintben marad, a másik kettő leborít. Ilyen is ritkán van! Találkozás azonos pozícióban és mi vagyunk létszámfölényben. — Dani, a jobb szélsőre megyek! — mondom, Dani annyit felel: — Jó! Teljes gáz! — A távolság a szintben kitérő Jak—9-es és köztem egyre csökken. Kissé nyomja. Távolság 200, rövid sorozatot lövök a 13 mm-esekkel, a távolság már csak 100 méter. Észreveszi a sorozatomat és rendkívül élesen jobb felhúzott fordulóba kezd. Jól látom a felségjelét és vörösre festett csőrét. Le kell kapnom egy pillanatra a gázt, hogy túl ne lőjek rajta, mert akkor szerepeink megcserélődnének, én lennék elöl, ő pedig hátul. Távolság már csak 50 méter. Pokolian szűkít, szinte eléri a saját farkát, távolság 30 méter, a revikör fekete, a próbasorozat a farka mögött szalad el. Csak géppuskázok egyelőre, de olyan szűken fordul, hogy alig látok a gyorsulástól. Egy pillanat alatt átfut az agyamon, hogy még rá kell húznom a gépem orrát, hogy teljesen eltakarjam, csak úgy találhatom el. Ha kések, meglóg, vagy — rosszabb esetben — ő lesz az üldöző. Ne mondja senki, hogy a Messzer 6000-en rosszul fordul! Teljesen elfeketedek, amikor meghúzom a botkormányt és nyomom a háromcentis ágyú gombját! A látásom visszatér, és látom, sőt érzem a robbanást előttem! Belefut a gépem — szerencsére csak az apró törmelékbe. Oldalt kinézve látom, hogy az az előbb még oly szép repülőgép három darabra válva, lángolva pörög lefelé . .."

 

Note the 2000 HP at 8000 m (sic). Depending on how soon after the event the memoirs were written and what source material was used in writing the memoirs there's no telling how accurate the specific details are.

 

See also the picture below from Janda-Poruba: Messerschmitt Bf 109G-10/U4 Production & Operational Service. It appears JG 27 and 53 were not the only ones running at 1,98 ata :)

 

Its almost impossible to tell from the photos what the inscription on the engine casing says, so we'll just have to take the author's word on that - interestingly, these same authors in Messerschmitt Bf 109K show that the DC could be run at 1.8 ata without MW 50

 

 

So, a pilot's memoir and authors providing conflicting information. Where oh where could there be some solid documentation?

[Kurfürst]

So, a pilot's memoir and authors providing conflicting information. Where oh where could there be some solid documentation?

 

:megalol:

 

Do you have any evidence of

 

(i) C-3 not being available to the 109 units concerned or that

(ii) the 109 units concerned refused to carry out their operational orders to increase manifold pressure to 1.98ata?

(iii) or evidence of combat use of +25 lbs boost on Mk IXs in 1945?

(iv) or evidence of combat use of +21 lbs boost on Mk XIVs in 1945?

[Kurfürst]

11lbs boost Tempy on 100/130fuel was regular in late 1944, am I right?

 

I believe so. IIRC Sabre IIB could run on +11 by default, and IIA if the engines propeller reduction gear was strengthened. Its a pity that the Tempest is not featured in DCS. :/

[MiloMorai]

That is an interesting last comment otto, because on Kurfurst's site the data sheet he has for the DB605DC engine doesn't show 2000hp @ 8000m.

 

8000m is well above FTH.

MW50 is used below FTH.

MW50 is required to achieve 2000hp.

[gavagai]

"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion."

 

Carl Sagan