Stealth? And some questions.

[Zyme]

So I played for a while now and I have some questions that I have been trying to find answer to, but can't seem to find a definite answer.

 

I play only multiplayer, and mostly the Su-27 when I use a fighter.

 

So is there any tips on going stealth and avoid radar detection (mostly players not SAMs)?

 

I know there is visual stealth and radar stealth. Going really low altitude you can avoid detection by eye and also by some aircraft that may not be scanning downwards. But SAM still seems to find you?

 

Mountains also help a bit and the RWR will not pick up anything.

 

Does turning off your radar make you harder to see on the enemy radar and/or RWR? I read that the Su-27 has some kind of IRST mode for heat detection to avoid using the radar.

 

Any stealth tips that work?

 

 

My second issue is missile avoidance, I can never see them because the trail of smoke is long gone when they approach me. No matter if I pop 50 flares+chaffs, they usually get me if there is no mountain to hide behind.

 

So my question is: Does putting your engine to idle make the missile harder to hit while popping countermeasures because of lower heat?

 

 

Thanks.

[Exorcet]

Flying tends to shield you from air and ground radar, but it also blocks your RWR which lowers your SA If you're going to fly low, do it in an area where you know it's safe to do so. Flying low also uses a lot more fuel.

 

Keeping your radar off prevents you from being seen on the RWR, but you will be just as visible on enemy radar. If you're going to go radar off, try communicating with friendly or relying on the Su-27's datalink (if a available).

 

The Su-27 does have IRST, but it is a short range system. It's probably not a good idea to use it as a primary sensor as enemies will likely find you before you find them. IRST is good for sneaking up to someone close by when you know their relative position from other means (like radar, RWR, or a visual cue).

 

Heat signature only effects IR missiles and yes, lowering throttle makes you harder to hit, but by no means makes you safe. At longer range focus on making the missile bleed energy by maneuvering. At close range, try to beam radar missiles (fly perpendicular to them) to break radar lock. Beaming doesn't work against IR missiles and you should try to avoid WVR missile envelopes (especially of other Russian planes, you do have an advantage over the F-15 as the R-73 is completely superior to the AIM-9M).

[blkspade]

It should also be added, that if you decide to use IRST you should know that it does not IFF. So if you aren't absolutely sure that what it picks up is an enemy, you should check with your radar before firing.

[rvotri]

This is a great simulation, but i never get "unoticed", i heard people saying around that they leave radar off till get close enough to shot and fire in no escape zone. BTW, in multiplayer, i never shooted someone in CAC modes, just targets of oportunities, normally i use the BVR mode, but some players said that turning on the BVR mode, i would be shot very soon, but they didn't told me why. So, there is a "what to do" list to be more stealth, to get close enough?? something i'm missing? Because i can't believe that players are that good at point to never let someone get close of'em

[GGTharos]

Why can't you believe it? All I have to do is point my radar at you and I see you. I don't really have to be good at anything other than knowing how to operate my radar scan. Even then, I just need to know a particular radar search procedure, so it's really following a script.

 

Generally speaking sneaking up on someone requires some luck, or teamwork ... and on most public servers, teamwork just isn't there.

[Ragnarok]

...the R-73 is completely superior to the AIM-9M).

AIM-9M has a great advantage because there is no visible smoke. Who says this is not important, he should try sneaking in Fi0 mode, with both missiles. I've seen the reality that AIM-9P and L are dense and visible smoke, but do not know for AIM-9M. Maybe GG has a video clip! :suspect:

[GGTharos]

There are also condensation effects that can make it look like a high smoke motor.

 

If you want to see some really high-smoke sidewinders, check this one out (AIM-9E)!

 

Edited July 9, 2015 by GGTharos

[ArkRoyal]

That missile sure turned alot harder to hit the target than the ones I fire in game

[ArkRoyal]

This is a great simulation, but i never get "unoticed", i heard people saying around that they leave radar off till get close enough to shot and fire in no escape zone. BTW, in multiplayer, i never shooted someone in CAC modes, just targets of oportunities, normally i use the BVR mode, but some players said that turning on the BVR mode, i would be shot very soon, but they didn't told me why. So, there is a "what to do" list to be more stealth, to get close enough?? something i'm missing? Because i can't believe that players are that good at point to never let someone get close of'em

 

Your issue is that the missiles right now have some issues. This isnt the thread for it, but all Ill say with regards to not using your "BVR mode" these people are wrong.

 

You should always be high, and you should have your radar on unless you have AWACS to guide you closer. Even then, you need to turn it on once in range.

 

Turning off your radar reduces your SA. Due to a general lack of know how, most people slink around in the mountains with their radars off relying either on IRST or the RWR slot machine to give them kills by waiting till someone else turns on their radar and doesnt know how to use it, allowing them to close and shoot from somewhere hidden.

 

Like GG said, if you know how to use your radar properly, all you have to do is point it at them to find them.

[Ragnarok]

There are also condensation effects that can make it look like a high smoke motor.

 

If you want to see some really high-smoke sidewinders, check this one out (AIM-9E)!

 

 

I see also that the P version has a reduction of smoke in the engine, but it on every shot has a great, probably condensation. By a similar principle I can't speak for the M version, just after the new shader in DCS2. It will be interesting.

[GGTharos]

There's no condensation modeled in-game and probably we won't see it happen. At any rate, low smoke motors are indeed used because of this advantage :)

[Frostie]

This is a great simulation, but i never get "unoticed", i heard people saying around that they leave radar off till get close enough to shot and fire in no escape zone.

In a general mp server with a lot of players, being stealthy can be done at any altitude because of the hectic environment and lack of co-ordination between everyone. It requires you to understand at what moments you're being seen and when you're not getting seen, building a general picture of what is happening and how the bandits you're facing are behaving combined with realising what level of support you have from friendlies.

 

With more co-ordinated and disciplined opponents this becomes harder to do and you should never rely on having one string to your bow, being predictable is what makes you an easy target.

 

The people directing you towards stealthy tactics are probably meaning that facing an F-15 in a Su27 with BVR is a tough challenge and opting for the sneaky approach pays off more, especially with the close ranges needed with the current missiles to apply a genuine threat. Making it into the acceptable kill zone with the current R-27ER puts you in a seriously hazardous position against ARH missiles where your opponent has easier options of escaping or pressing while keeping you defensive, your options border on suicide to make him defensive or give up and try and outrun a faster aircraft.

Edited July 9, 2015 by Frostie

[DarkFire]

One possible option that doesn't appear to be used much is to loiter around at very high altitude. By that I mean well above the contrail altitude. This does come with some significant disadvantages though:

 

1. At very high altitude the F-15 (most likely opposition) has significant performance advantages.
   
2. Your radar is worse at looking down than theirs is at looking up.
   
3. As others have noted, the IRST is an inherently stealthy sensor but has very short range compared to your radar.
   
4. The Su-27 is a physically large fighter that wasn't designed with low-observability in mind.
   
5. At altitudes above ~7000m you must use the 3rd dimension. Though it's an agile dogfighter in terms of turning engagements, the Su-27 doesn't perform well at all doing this at high altitude.
   

 

Essentially there are few opportunities for use of what might be called 'stealth' in the Su-27. You'll have much, much more success maintaining situational awareness and making good use of your AWACS / EWR data link to approach targets from an unexpected position. If, if you can get within 10-15Km without using your radar then using the IRST in combination with either the R-27ET or R-73 will allow you to attack with virtually no warning, but this is again very risky and against an organised team is next to impossible. You'll also need to be intimately familiar with your SPO-15 in terms of target type against measured signal strength to give you an indication of range to a hostile emitter.

[Stuge]

Any stealth tips that work?

 

Sure, use these for Su-27 stealth:

-radar off. Use it only when necessary (for example if you have no idea where to even start looking for bad guys, or when you are obviously seen by an enemy)

-IRST only, vertical scan works best in hilly areas

-If hiding behind hills is not an option, put radar warning signatures on your 3 o clock or 9 o clock to disappear from enemy scopes and potentially circle around the enemy.

-use ET as your primary weapon.

-If enemy sees you, fire a long shot! If the enemy doesn't expect it, you may score a max range kill

-If enemy doesn't see you, close the range so you can be sure of the kill when you open fire.

 

So my question is: Does putting your engine to idle make the missile harder to hit while popping countermeasures because of lower heat?

 

Yeah. Most effective way to spoof infrared missiles:

-throttle idle

-point nose straight at missile (this minimizes heat signature from engines)

-pop flares