ka-50 trim - reverting to alternate method?

[cendar]

As a NON-FORCE-FEEDBACK stick user with quite strong stick centering springs, just-working trimming is a requirement for me to start enjoying the nice ka-50 piece of steel.

 

I tried the center-trimmer option, tried editing HelicopterTrimmerTauInverse, tried nearly anything i could find or imagine to get a satisfying trim in the ka-50.

 

After a few hours where i really could not enjoy it, i'm about to stop trying, uninstall the ka-50 module, delete my license files forever and forget about that useless heli.

 

I could have some relatively nice flights over a few hours of trials, but in every flight i ended diying without any enemy around, just fighting the non-pleasant trim/ap when i suddenly am maxing one stick direction and/or can't get the centering unnatural thing to work properly, then see huge corrections added by the thing.

 

So here's my question :

 

Non-FFB users ALREADY have an unrealistic feeling when trimming the heli (recentering the stick, that is).

So ... that being established, why NOT RESTORE a simple "increase roll right trim", "increase pitch up trim", and so on.. like we have on planes ?

 

That would be as un-realistic, as unnatural as the current "you have xx 100th of a second to re-center your stick AND rudders" but should at least allow non-ffb users, non masochist users to ACTUALLY enjoy the thing.

 

Having a quick look on the exposed settings for the ka-50 fm, it seems that would be hard/impossible to achieve by modders, unless some exposed functions may allow such a modification, any chance ED could do something about this and let NON-FFB users enjoy the thing ?

[Flagrum]

So ... that being established, why NOT RESTORE a simple "increase roll right trim", "increase pitch up trim", and so on.. like we have on planes ?

Because helos are different from fixed wing planes.

 

How exactly would your proposal work? You have separate trim controls that you would use to stabilize the helo for the desired attitude so you could keep your joystick at it's physical center? If you are having already problems now with trim changes with the current system, how do you imagine you could handle it better if you would have to use additional controls? The attitude of a helo changes constantly and you constantly change the trimming.

 

I mean, yes, I feel your pain, but if we don't want to sacrifice a good amount of the high fidelity flight model of our helos, I see no real alternative (for non-FFB users).

Edited September 12, 2014 by Flagrum

[cendar]

Because helos are different from fixed wing planes.

 

How exactly would your proposal work? You have separate trim controls that you would use to stabilize the helo for the desired attitude so you could keep your joystick at it's physical center? If you are having already problems now with trim changes with the current system, how do you imagine you could handle it better if you would have to use additional controls? The attitude of a helo changes constantly and you constantly change the trimming.

 

Yes, i'd use 6 buttons (increase & decrease pitch trim, inc+dec roll pitch, inc+dec rudder trim on a hat or tms-like), then would be able to add some small adjustments to the course, by using my stick and/or re-trimming when needed.

 

The fact that altitude changes frequently is already taken into account by current ap, so would it with a slightly different trimming method.

 

This would just prevent you from fighting the ap at our stick's springs strongest positions when the fast-stick-recentering thing failed, and would allow player to keep their stick close to the center position, while still able to add small adjustments.

 

I know that would be unnatural/unrealistic, but as i said in OP, it would be AS UNREALISTIC as it's right now .. but could help some

 

There's onyl one last thing i could try, but that would mean rebinding the whole thing another time ; may try it though, cause i really want to enjoy the ka-50 !

That thing being : use an older stick, with no centering spring at all, no ffb (was not satisfied with sidewinder 2 ffb so far, couldn't eliminate the opposite shock you get when releasing trim, although tried the swap/invert options on x, y) and see where it goes ...

Edited September 12, 2014 by cendar

[cendar]

....

I mean, yes, I feel your pain, but if we don't want to sacrifice a good amount of the high fidelity flight model of our helos, I see no real alternative (for non-FFB users).

 

yeah ... i agree ... but damn i want to be able to properly fly that thing :)

i guess i should give it some more time before actually destroying it (license) for good, eventually giving another try to my old ffb stick.

 

bs2 have been out for some time now, chances are ED will not alter it anymore and concentrate on the ww2 era for a while :(

 

another thing that could be done is altering the 'trim reset' cheat, so it is not instantaneous anymore, but could spread over a given amount of time, allowing manual corrections while it's happening, trying to eliminate ... i'll stop thinking about this and jump in my a-10c..

Edited September 12, 2014 by cendar

[Flagrum]

Yes, i'd use 6 buttons (increase & decrease pitch trim, inc+dec roll pitch, inc+dec rudder trim on a hat or tms-like), then would be able to add some small adjustments to the course, by using my stick and/or re-trimming when needed.

 

The fact that altitude changes frequently is already taken into account by current ap, so would it with a slightly different trimming method.

 

This would just prevent you from fighting the ap at our stick's springs strongest positions when the fast-stick-recentering thing failed, and would allow player to keep their stick close to the center position, while still able to add small adjustments.

 

I know that would be unnatural/unrealistic, but as i said in OP, it would be AS UNREALISTIC as it's right now .. but could help some

 

There's onyl one last thing i could try, but that would mean rebinding the whole thing another time ; may try it though, cause i really want to enjoy the ka-50 !

That thing being : use an older stick, with no centering spring at all, no ffb (was not satisfied with sidewinder 2 ffb so far, couldn't eliminate the opposite shock you get when releasing trim, although tried the swap/invert options on x, y) and see where it goes ...

I know that the re-centering is a PITA (therefore I am glad to have my G940!), but many others fly the helos with non-FFB sticks. I guess, they just got used to it eventually.

 

And this leads me to believe that you are perhaps experiencing other issues (or perhaps additional issues). For re-centering, you would just have to let go of the stick - especially if your device has strong springs, as you mentioned. "Having to fight the AP" is usually an indication of something else. Don't be offended, but perhaps you just have not really understood the function of the AP to it's full extend, yet? This is quite common - there are different modes and sub-modes and if you mix those up and don't fit for what you are really trying to do, you end up with a helo that "actively tries to kill you". We all were at that point in the beginning (well, 95% of us :o).

 

You read and understood the article someone wrote over at SimHQ about the function and operation of the AP?

 

And I would suggest, you post a track which demonstrates where you are having these difficulties.

[cendar]

I know that the re-centering is a PITA (therefore I am glad to have my G940!), but many others fly the helos with non-FFB sticks. I guess, they just got used to it eventually.

 

And this leads me to believe that you are perhaps experiencing other issues (or perhaps additional issues). For re-centering, you would just have to let go of the stick - especially if your device has strong springs, as you mentioned. "Having to fight the AP" is usually an indication of something else. Don't be offended, but perhaps you just have not really understood the function of the AP to it's full extend, yet? This is quite common - there are different modes and sub-modes and if you mix those up and don't fit for what you are really trying to do, you end up with a helo that "actively tries to kill you". We all were at that point in the beginning (well, 95% of us :o).

 

You read and understood the article someone wrote over at SimHQ about the function and operation of the AP?

 

And I would suggest, you post a track which demonstrates where you are having these difficulties.

 

yep, i also read those trim + ap pages (http://www.simhq.com/_air13/air_428a.html) when i was really trying hard to solve my issues

 

i can fly the thing relatively well for a given amount of time, then i probably fail to recenter properly for some reason (will try the unchain rudder thing one more time as it could be my rudder - using an elev axis for that atm) and there starts the problems - unable to recover :)

 

so yeah, thanks to you i think i'll give it three more tries :

- non-ffb cougar hotas, with unchained rudder trim mod from peterP(i think it's from him) - this is the one with the strong, unmodded centering springs

- ffb old sidewinder 2 trying another time to remove the massive ffb shock on trim release

- non-ffb stick with no centering spring at all, that should allow me to really keep the stick in its real position with no arm pain, being able to release pressure on stick

 

thanks again for your inputs, have fun & fly safe :p )

Edited September 12, 2014 by cendar

[Flagrum]

yeah ... i agree ... but damn i want to be able to properly fly that thing :)

i guess i should give it some more time before actually destroying it (license) for good, eventually giving another try to my old ffb stick.

 

bs2 have been out for some time now, chances are ED will not alter it anymore and concentrate on the ww2 era for a while :(

 

another thing that could be done is altering the 'trim reset' cheat, so it is not instantaneous anymore, but could spread over a given amount of time, allowing manual corrections while it's happening, trying to eliminate ... i'll stop thinking about this and jump in my a-10c..

 

For the records, do you have "Central Postion Trimmer" mode enable under Options -> Special -> Ka-50? You know the difference in behaviour of the trimming that it is responsible for? If enabled, no stick input is considered until the stick is re-centered. If it is disabled, the current position is gradually fed in as input so that if you don't recenter the stick, the attitude of the helo will change (within 2-3 seconds, iirc).

 

About "trim reset": do you use it regulary? It is not meant to be used, afaik. It is more like a cheat - under normal circumstances it should not really be necessary to use it. You just steer to get the helo into the desired attitude and at trim-release (and stick re-centering) the helo will keep this new attitude (influence by the choosen AP mode/submode). No need to reset anything.

 

Also ... are you familar with the two major "trim techniques", "eastern style" or "attitude change ... click-trim" and "western style", aka "trim press ... attitude change ... trim-release"?

[Flagrum]

- ffb old sidewinder 2 trying another time to remove the massive ffb shock on trim release

- non-ffb stick with no centering spring at all, that should allow me to really keep the stick in its real position with no arm pain, being able to release pressure on stick

The sidewinder might be your best option in any case (and the no-spring variant perhaps the 2nd best). For the "trim-release shock" problem: a) you can reduce the FFB forces for the device under "FF Tune" under Options -> Controls

and b) make yourself familar with the "western style trimming method". If you depress the trim button, the forces are removed from the stick and you can maneuver freely. Upon trim-release, the forces are applied again - at the now new stick position. So if you release trim only after you archieved a stable attitude, no "shock" will occur.

 

And again, if you still have difficulties, post a track. I am confident that we will find something to help you. :o)

 

edit:

and yes, the "unchain rudder from trim"-mod is gold in my eyes. Tbh, I could not really fly without it ... Maybe this is really your main problem: coordinating your stick re-centering AND pedal re-centering as both are non-FFB. With my FFB stick, I would only have to worry with the pedal re-centering, but even that is very difficult (maybe, too, just a matter of practice, but with the mod I don't really have to worry about that either)

Edited September 12, 2014 by Flagrum

[cendar]

For the records, do you have "Central Postion Trimmer" mode enable under Options -> Special -> Ka-50? You know the difference in behaviour of the trimming that it is responsible for? If enabled, no stick input is considered until the stick is re-centered. If it is disabled, the current position is gradually fed in as input so that if you don't recenter the stick, the attitude of the helo will change (within 2-3 seconds, iirc).

 

yep, at first i started with that option unchecked, later tried to edit HelicopterTrimmerTauInverse in FMOptions.lua to suit my needs,

 

then i kept it checked til now.

 

That may have been my 'error' there ; i could/should probably revert it back to the old delay-based recentering mechanism and give it some more time.

 

 

About "trim reset": do you use it regulary? It is not meant to be used, afaik. It is more like a cheat - under normal circumstances it should not really be necessary to use it. You just steer to get the helo into the desired attitude and at trim-release (and stick re-centering) the helo will keep this new attitude (influence by the choosen AP mode/submode). No need to reset anything.

 

I usually don't use it, it's more a last-resort panic thing i try when things gets ugly, trying to recover from the inevitable :)

(recentering actual controls, then reset ; but .. rarely use it on time actually)

 

Also ... are you familar with the two major "trim techniques", "eastern style" or "attitude change ... click-trim" and "western style", aka "trim press ... attitude change ... trim-release"?

 

Tried both, i finally stick with the hold technique, which so far lead to smaller adjustments in course, and less bumps/huge corrections

 

Well ... making some more coffee and giving that beauty another try, thanks again for your inputs, appreciated :)

[Isegrim]

As a NON-FORCE-FEEDBACK stick user with quite strong stick centering springs, just-working trimming is a requirement for me to start enjoying the nice ka-50 piece of steel.

 

I tried the center-trimmer option, tried editing HelicopterTrimmerTauInverse, tried nearly anything i could find or imagine to get a satisfying trim in the ka-50.

 

After a few hours where i really could not enjoy it, i'm about to stop trying, uninstall the ka-50 module, delete my license files forever and forget about that useless heli.

 

I could have some relatively nice flights over a few hours of trials, but in every flight i ended diying without any enemy around, just fighting the non-pleasant trim/ap when i suddenly am maxing one stick direction and/or can't get the centering unnatural thing to work properly, then see huge corrections added by the thing.

 

So here's my question :

 

Non-FFB users ALREADY have an unrealistic feeling when trimming the heli (recentering the stick, that is).

So ... that being established, why NOT RESTORE a simple "increase roll right trim", "increase pitch up trim", and so on.. like we have on planes ?

 

That would be as un-realistic, as unnatural as the current "you have xx 100th of a second to re-center your stick AND rudders" but should at least allow non-ffb users, non masochist users to ACTUALLY enjoy the thing.

 

Having a quick look on the exposed settings for the ka-50 fm, it seems that would be hard/impossible to achieve by modders, unless some exposed functions may allow such a modification, any chance ED could do something about this and let NON-FFB users enjoy the thing ?

 

Workaround if you got really such Proplems with trim.

Try without trim and hold the Stick in the position where it should be.

[andqui]

I don't know if it's already been mentioned, but here is what helped me really enjoy the Ka-50 a few years ago. First, check the central position trimmer mode option, so that you don't need to worry about recentering instantly. Next, instead of just moving the stick and then pressing trim, hold down the trimmer while maneuvering, and release when you're stable in the new desired attitude. When you hold down the trimmer, the AP channels stop fighting you allowing you to fly freely. When you're situated how you like, then just release the trimmer and smoothly return everything to center. This leads to smooth controls while maneuvering, and also makes it so that there is no post-trim "bump." It might not be entirely realistic based on how the helicopter is actually flown, but without a FFB stick it's the best option for me, and lets me fly very comfortably.

[jimcarrel]

I don't know if it's already been mentioned, but here is what helped me really enjoy the Ka-50 a few years ago. First, check the central position trimmer mode option, so that you don't need to worry about recentering instantly. Next, instead of just moving the stick and then pressing trim, hold down the trimmer while maneuvering, and release when you're stable in the new desired attitude. When you hold down the trimmer, the AP channels stop fighting you allowing you to fly freely. When you're situated how you like, then just release the trimmer and smoothly return everything to center. This leads to smooth controls while maneuvering, and also makes it so that there is no post-trim "bump." It might not be entirely realistic based on how the helicopter is actually flown, but without a FFB stick it's the best option for me, and lets me fly very comfortably.

 

This is the way I've flown it from day one. I always read here and there about accumulating errors in trim, but have never experienced any problems using trim this way, just natural as eating apple pie, it seems.

[andqui]

This is the way I've flown it from day one. I always read here and there about accumulating errors in trim, but have never experienced any problems using trim this way, just natural as eating apple pie, it seems.

 

What do you mean by accumulating errors? Anyways, the entirely realistic way to fly it would be to push the trim button many many times, repeatedly, as you move the stick to different positions. However this isn't really possible without FFB, so I think the way above is a good compromise that gets you controlled + trimmed flying, but it can still be tedious when doing something like a rocket run while one finger is occupied holding down the trimmer.

[Buzzles]

but it can still be tedious when doing something like a rocket run while one finger is occupied holding down the trimmer.

 

That's what the Flight Director mode is for :)