MiG 21 vs modern fighters

[313_Nevo]

what about statistics? does 104th or other popular server provide statistics? so we can see how successful are MiG riders in DCS!? :)

[ff4life4]

Im gonna say its a lot of deaths for a lower number of kills.

 

I'm no where near the best at using the MiG-21 A/A but on a good, and i mean a very good day I may get 1 Kill for every 1 or 2 airframes. And thats when I've by sheer chance gone up against people who aren't highly skilled in their aircraft and tactics.

 

An average day 1 Kill for 4 airframe.

 

On a day I'm flying against very good pilots, who use teamwork, like the 104th Squadron guys, I have 0, I mean 0 chance. They are very good and know their F15s well.

 

 

 

But for kicks I got bored dying last night in my Mig so I jumped in a F15, and got 5 kills with 2 airframes against very good high scoring pilots so I firmly believe the Mig21 taught me a lot. :thumbup:

[GGTharos]

In another bit of potentially sad news, I noticed the R-3s have excessive performance. Rocket motors that burn too long, top speed that is too high etc.

[ttaylor0024]

In another bit of potentially sad news, I noticed the R-3s have excessive performance. Rocket motors that burn too long, top speed that is too high etc.

 

 

R.I.P. MiG-21

[RIPTIDE]

Some MiG-21 pilots are bringing tears to guys eyes in the 104th server everyday. Hadwell being crushing egos. lol

[GGTharos]

Not quite, I think you shoot at ranges where a correction would give the target a couple more seconds to evade, but otherwise I think you'd see little difference - it really depends on the attack profile. :)

 

R.I.P. MiG-21

[RIPTIDE]

Well, that one hurt a lot... Was on the 104th and found a SU-27 close head-on. Locked and launched an R-3R and actually had it go stupid. Never lost lock and I have no clue where it went off to. Tried to launch the 2nd but it wouldn't come off the rail (everything was checked, and double checked before takeoff to be hot).Needless to say, after the head on we both began maneuvering. I decided to experiment with the 2x R-3R and 4x R-60M, and even with emergency afterburner I couldn't do ANYTHING. Aircraft was extremely sluggish and slow, was buffeting through turns and promptly got an R-73 to the knee. I'm so disappointed in myself.

You didn't switch pylons, then.

[Darkwolf]

The MiG-21 isn't made to be agile.

 

Just override the mechanic ASC (can't recall the name) and you'll have a quite nice plane.

[ttaylor0024]

You didn't switch pylons, then.

 

I have the missile selector mapped to my HOTAS which didn't stop working while I was using it, pylon power was on and everything. Maybe it was outside of launch parameters with the closure rate or something.

 

Again, evaded 3 AIM-120s only to get another launched at me from about 6 miles at the very furthest, just didn't have any moves left to make... I mean really, who launches an AMRAAM well WVR? At least use a sparrow or something.

Edited December 16, 2014 by ttaylor0024

[Hadwell]

I have the missile selector mapped to my HOTAS which didn't stop working while I was using it, pylon power was on and everything. Maybe it was outside of launch parameters with the closure rate or something.

 

you can launch missiles at any time so long as the correct pylon is selected and their powered up, don't even need a lock...

 

what's lame is that IR seekers still need to be attached to the pylons to start tracking, that doesn't make any sense to me... i think if you were to dumb fire 4 R-60M's and an enemy were to fly infront of one, it should start tracking on its own shouldn't it?

[GGTharos]

Why would it? Why wouldn't it track the sun, a cloud, or the ground instead?

Why would it even be cooled if you're just switching to it and dumb-firing it? It might not track anything at all?

 

There's a reason why there are aiming methods for these, instead of 'dumb firing' missiles all over the place, and even with those methods being used, and correctly, there can still be a high failure rate.

 

what's lame is that IR seekers still need to be attached to the pylons to start tracking, that doesn't make any sense to me... i think if you were to dumb fire 4 R-60M's and an enemy were to fly infront of one, it should start tracking on its own shouldn't it?

[Hadwell]

Why would it? Why wouldn't it track the sun, a cloud, or the ground instead?

Why would it even be cooled if you're just switching to it and dumb-firing it? It might not track anything at all?

 

There's a reason why there are aiming methods for these, instead of 'dumb firing' missiles all over the place, and even with those methods being used, and correctly, there can still be a high failure rate.

 

if that's the case, then if i fire it at an enemy, and a friendly flys infront of the seeker, why does the missile still have the ability to switch to the friendly?

 

there's no way it should need to be attached to a pylon in order to track a target, otherwise as soon as it left the pylon it'd go dumb...

 

 

and look at the aim-120... its even more fire and forget than that...

 

also IR missiles DO track the sun... but they don't have a 360 degree panoramic view...

Edited December 17, 2014 by Hadwell

[GGTharos]

if that's the case, then if i fire it at an enemy, and a friendly flys infront of the seeker, why does the missile still have the ability to switch to the friendly?

 

Because your friendly has a higher signal to noise ratio? :D

 

there's no way it should need to be attached to a pylon in order to track a target, otherwise as soon as it left the pylon it'd go dumb...

 

Yes way. The pylon contains the coolant (if necessary), it cages the seeker so it doesn't get seduced by random things and instead can be pointed at what YOU want to point it at, etc. etc.

 

and look at the aim-120... its even more fire and forget than that...

 

Much newer missile, much newer and better guidance, and it's STILL not fire and forget (unless it can go pitbull off the rail, but even then it HAS TO BE AIMED).

 

also IR missiles DO track the sun... but they don't have a 360 degree panoramic view...

 

Doesn't matter. Although the game doesn't model it, this type of seeker will be attracted to pretty much any random heat source. Thus, no random 'dumb' missile launching. It doesn't work in RL, it shouldn't work in the game.

 

I don't know why you're trying to make excuses for it - why have a sighting system at all if that's all you needed to do?

[ttaylor0024]

if that's the case, then if i fire it at an enemy, and a friendly flys infront of the seeker, why does the missile still have the ability to switch to the friendly?

 

there's no way it should need to be attached to a pylon in order to track a target, otherwise as soon as it left the pylon it'd go dumb...

 

 

and look at the aim-120... its even more fire and forget than that...

 

also IR missiles DO track the sun... but they don't have a 360 degree panoramic view...

 

The AIM-120 has the targeting data linked to the missile until it's internal sensor goes active.

 

If the missile isn't seeking anything, then it will just fly straight, it's just what it does. Even if your theory were to be correct it would have to be in a very, very small FOV and even then it wouldn't ever hit because it would pull insane G to get back on target and run out of energy, and that doesn't even matter because the enemy aircraft would have long been out of its FOV.

 

These are just reasons I can come up with off the top of my head. It just doesn't work.

 

it cages the seeker so it doesn't get seduced by random things and instead can be pointed at what YOU want to point it at, etc. etc.

+1 for the wording

[Hadwell]

The AIM-120 has the targeting data linked to the missile until it's internal sensor goes active.

 

If the missile isn't seeking anything, then it will just fly straight, it's just what it does. Even if your theory were to be correct it would have to be in a very, very small FOV and even then it wouldn't ever hit because it would pull insane G to get back on target and run out of energy, and that doesn't even matter because the enemy aircraft would have long been out of its FOV.

 

These are just reasons I can come up with off the top of my head. It just doesn't work.

 

yeah it just doesn't make any sense to me though... even if the chance is slim, i personally would still have the seeker turned on... in case it does find something...

 

also known as... if a friendly can fly between me and my target and the missile switches to the friendly, then there's no reason an enemy can't fly in front of the seeker instead

[GGTharos]

The AIM-120 has the targeting data linked to the missile until it's internal sensor goes active.

 

Even after (not in game). The real deal uses the off-board data to play tricks with your jammer, ditch all your chaff, and pretend to ignore you hopping into the notch. It will also use that data to avoid hitting a different nearby aircraft.

 

 

If the missile isn't seeking anything, then it will just fly straight, it's just what it does. Even if your theory were to be correct it would have to be in a very, very small FOV and even then it wouldn't ever hit because it would pull insane G to get back on target and run out of energy, and that doesn't even matter because the enemy aircraft would have long been out of its FOV.

 

No, it'll find something to seek. Like a cloud, sun reflection from a lake, your local forest fire, other random heat-sources. They don't even need to be big. It'll even track the ground if that's the hottest thing around. Of course, none of that 'in game'.

 

Mainly you're correct about how it'll work in game. I would add the idea that a target could transit through the FoV so fast in some cases that the seeker wouldn't even have time to track the target.

[ttaylor0024]

yeah it just doesn't make any sense to me though... even if the chance is slim, i personally would still have the seeker turned on... in case it does find something...

 

But why would you rifle off 2-6 IR missiles with a Pk of abut 1:1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.000? That's worse than noobs rifling 6 AIM-120s at 15nm

 

EDIT: had to add more 0s

[Hadwell]

But why would you rifle off 2-6 IR missiles with a Pk of abut 1:1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.000? That's worse than noobs rifling 6 AIM-120s at 15nm

 

EDIT: had to add more 0s

 

last ditch effort... or im really close to an enemy and can tell he's going to pass in front of me soon, i can launch the missile before the tone cause i know in a moment im going to get the tone anyway, allows me a few more seconds to escape if i have to...

[ttaylor0024]

last ditch effort... or im really close to an enemy and can tell he's going to pass in front of me soon, i can launch the missile before the tone cause i know in a moment im going to get the tone anyway, allows me a few more seconds to escape if i have to...

 

That situation wouldn't work though because he would transition through the seeker head too fast, or wouldn't enter the seeker head's FOV at all.

[Hadwell]

That situation wouldn't work though because he would transition through the seeker head too fast, or wouldn't enter the seeker head's FOV at all.

 

that might be true... it depends on what the enemy is doing... take a look at the video on the first post in this thread... in that situation... do you honestly think he's transitioning through the seekers FOV at any insane rate?

[ttaylor0024]

that might be true... it depends on what the enemy is doing... take a look at the video on the first post in this thread... in that situation... do you honestly think he's transitioning through the seekers FOV at any insane rate?

 

Yes, because the seeker head wouldn't be tracking him coming off the rail

[Hadwell]

Yes, because the seeker head wouldn't be tracking him coming off the rail

 

 

do you know what a deflection shot is? knowing where the enemy will be when the bullet gets to it?

 

why can't you do that with seekers? why can't i know where the enemy will be so that when i fire my missile, a few seconds later the seeker picks it up?

 

 

or now that i think about it... yeah i see what you mean... if the seeker just picked up on anything, it'll go all wobbly trying to follow everything at once...?

 

I don't know a lot about missiles, i don't really like them much, since i spent the vast majority of my time playing ww2 sims...

Edited December 17, 2014 by Hadwell

[ttaylor0024]

do you know what a deflection shot is? knowing where the enemy will be when the bullet gets to it?

 

why can't you do that with seekers? why can't i know where the enemy will be so that when i fire my missile, a few seconds later the seeker picks it up?

 

 

or now that i think about it... yeah i see what you mean... if the seeker just picked up on anything, it'll go all wobbly trying to follow everything at once...?

 

I don't know a lot about missiles, i don't really like them much, since i spent the vast majority of my time playing ww2 sims...

 

Yes, I understand what a deflection shot is, and at that point you're basically just looking to hit someone with a rocket. If you decide to test this, report back with your findings. We're just saying that your chance of kill is impossibly low.

[Hadwell]

well more like semi-rocket.... i want it to dumb fire like a rocket till the enemy passes close enough for the seeker to start tracking... but if the missile would go all squirrely cause the seeker will just follow whatever... then yeah... not really helpful...

Edited December 17, 2014 by Hadwell

[GGTharos]

do you know what a deflection shot is? knowing where the enemy will be when the bullet gets to it?

 

Do you know what a seeker slew limit is? Do you know what seeker settling time is?

 

why can't you do that with seekers? why can't i know where the enemy will be so that when i fire my missile, a few seconds later the seeker picks it up?

 

Because of the above things. ALL of the above things, including previous posts.

 

or now that i think about it... yeah i see what you mean... if the seeker just picked up on anything, it'll go all wobbly trying to follow everything at once...?

 

Not necessarily, it could simply get 'drawn away', even slowly. If something passes through its view, it either has time to settle and track, or not. After that it's up to the slew limits, which are notoriously poor for those old missiles, and in any case, such shots aren't even really considered for modern missiles - even with a 120 mad-dog shot you're expect to aim it, and even then you have to be in parameters, ie. at a distance that will allow the seeker to search, detect, and track, and then allow the missile to maneuver in time to hit the target.

 

I don't know a lot about missiles, i don't really like them much, since i spent the vast majority of my time playing ww2 sims...

 

Most people think missiles are shoot-to-win. They're quite demonstrably far from that idea ;)