New beginners

[weeb]

My A10-c, I thought I would stick together a simple diagram to get you at it. As I started thinking about it, My mind just got flooded with, what, why, how? So I thought about it, chatted to others and decided. Only way I am going to learn is do it and learn from my mistakes.

 

First thing to me was proof of concept, can I make a switch work that clicks a switch in the sim.

Yes! people had done it before me so lets look at the options.

 

1. Q. Can I make a simple switch that connects to the sim?

A. Yes, what do I need? Ok lets take a panel and decide what it does and how I can make it.

2. Q. Can I make the Elec Pwr panel

A. Yes, its 6 switches 5 on/off, 1 on/off/on, did a search, test is not used in sim so off/on is

fine.

3. Q. Where can I get switches?

A. I got all mine on ebay and Maplin. I need a box to hold the switches, Maplin again, so I

had the box, got the switches let's put this together.

4. How will the switch box interface with the sim? I went for the BBi32 button box purely for it's

simplicity, it can run rotary encoders but that's for a different lesson.

 

See below, this is wiring diagram for your first box. If you want to go step by step, let me know, I know nothing in comparison to some of the guys here, but I'm here to help if needed.

 

weeb

 

So here we go:

 

Box from Maplins, BBI32 from LeoBodnar.

 

 

I mounted the board using the small brass fittings for a motherboard and used a glue gun to secure them.

 

 

Soldered the necessary wires and inserted them into the board.

 

 

Some rubber stick on feet from Ebay.

 

Completed Box.

 

 

place holder:

Edited December 31, 2014 by weeb

[Warhog]

I've started rebuilding my panels. I was originally using the BB-32 board but it doesn't let you sync your switches. If your panel switch was battery 'on' when you started the sim, switching to battery 'off' caused the the sim to move the in game switch so now my switch was working opposite to the sim. And that happens to all the switches that weren't oriented correctly when I started up. And then there is the situation that you get dropped into a hot start aircraft. Now you can never get your switches properly synced.

 

The reason I mention this is that DCS-BIOS, that was just released, eliminates that situation entirely. It lets you sync switches without causing this switching in opposite directions kind of crap. I am now in the process of switching (no pun intended) :P over to this new system because 1, it eliminates the whole syncing issue and 2. the Arduino boards are so inexpensive and offer way more flexibility. But it was mostly because it was so frustrating not being able to get my switches synced properly in hot start planes.

 

I think you will see what I mean when you start using your panel in game. Making sure Five switches are in the correct position when you start cold is not that much of a hassle but I have over 60 to deal with.

 

It is so important to start with a system that permits this kind of in game resyncing or you will end up doing what I now have to do...replace all your interface boards. I know this from experience as I probably have at least one of every interface board that is popular to use with DCS.

[weeb]

Thanks for the info Warhog, I wondered about that in hindsight. I appreciate your input. I am going onto Arduinos for my full size build. I have downloaded all the DCS-Bios stuff and working my way through it. The BBi32 was basically a proof of concept, just to see If I had it in me to see a build through to completion. AS you say Arduino's are cheap, have got 5 coming, I just need to put them into a drawing so I can see what is going to run what. Boltz, HMA and FSFIan have been a huge help. I took a look at your website and was gobsmacked at what you have done. I'm a beginner, no doubt about it, but I have this thirst for knowledge, too much time on my hands and a spare room shouting out a10 cockpit. :pilotfly:

[weeb]

Look what I found kicking about the loft. It's from a late 70's early 80's soda stream. Looks just the job. I have a spare one if someone needs one. :thumbup:

 

[weeb]

Anyone got diameter of the Hanson Coupling pipe?, Think I stand corrected, it's not Hanson Coupling (we used them on our Sat Drysuits), are they all screw fit connectors?

 

 

weeb

[Warhog]

Thanks for the info Warhog, I wondered about that in hindsight. I appreciate your input. I am going onto Arduinos for my full size build. I have downloaded all the DCS-Bios stuff and working my way through it. The BBi32 was basically a proof of concept, just to see If I had it in me to see a build through to completion. AS you say Arduino's are cheap, have got 5 coming, I just need to put them into a drawing so I can see what is going to run what. Boltz, HMA and FSFIan have been a huge help. I took a look at your website and was gobsmacked at what you have done. I'm a beginner, no doubt about it, but I have this thirst for knowledge, too much time on my hands and a spare room shouting out a10 cockpit. :pilotfly:

 

 

Thank you for your comments. I assume you were at my FLICKR or my Photobucket site.

 

This is where I keep my progress photos of my "cockpit to be".

 

 

Ian was suggesting I start a thread here on ED with my photos. I'm considering it but often I have a hard time keeping up with the comments which also takes from my building time.

 

Have you a drawing program that you will use for your panels and how would you make them? Any access to CNC or Laser cutters? These are probably the most necessary pieces of hardware for cockpit building if you plan to do it all yourself. Virtually every component in my cockpit has been scratch built.

 

I started out building large scale ships in styrene and when I was confident enough I moved on to more complex things such as what you see on my photo sites. Its a huge challenge but also quite rewarding in that you actually get to sit in the cockpit of an A10C or as close as we will ever get. I have a 120" screen and a projector which really helps with the realism. When the new graphics engine comes out it should be unbelievable.

 

I see by your pictures that you pay attention to detail and you also use tools that permit detail. That's a good skill to have for this endeavor.

 

If you get stuck on something don't hesitate to fire off an email and if I can help I certainly will. Spend a lot of time going over the various builds on this forum. It helps immensely as it will show you what to do and what not to do. Its more the "what not to do" that's most important as learning from others mistakes will help your build go much smoother.

 

Good luck with this and don't forget to post pics as you move forward.:)

[Hansolo]

I've started rebuilding my panels. I was originally using the BB-32 board but it doesn't let you sync your switches. If your panel switch was battery 'on' when you started the sim, switching to battery 'off' caused the the sim to move the in game switch so now my switch was working opposite to the sim. And that happens to all the switches that weren't oriented correctly when I started up. And then there is the situation that you get dropped into a hot start aircraft. Now you can never get your switches properly synced.

 

Hmm strange most of mine are updating. The only ones that doesn't really update are the 6x mag-switches & IFFCC.

All other pit switches will go to the position I have set them hardwired before unpausing the game. Did you use a modified joystick.lua file or the original one?

 

Cheers

Hans

 

P.s. @WarHog that are some outrageously good looking instruments you have got in production :thumbup: top craftmanship

Edited January 1, 2015 by Hansolo

[weeb]

Thank you for your comments. I assume you were at my FLICKR or my Photobucket site.

 

This is where I keep my progress photos of my "cockpit to be".

 

 

Ian was suggesting I start a thread here on ED with my photos. I'm considering it but often I have a hard time keeping up with the comments which also takes from my building time.

 

Not being patronizing here but I think you have proved yourself as the guru when It comes to pit building. Why not get mods to sticky a post with the link to your pit build, saves you time coming here and posting again duplicates of what are already on your Flikr site. Just a thought.

 

In response to drawing programmes, I have photoshop6 and paint :megalol: I have no Cad training whatsoever. My father who was an engineer looked at some of my drawings I had done in paint and thought they were CAD. I learned to adapt.

 

CNC or Lazer, nothing yet, I have been looking at purchasing or building a CNC machine but it's a minefield. I have laid aside a budget of roughly 1200 euros re CNC but the more I research it, the more confused I get in all honesty.

 

Cutting the panels on black perspex is not a problem its printing the switch labels I see as the worst hurdle to overcome.

 

weeb

[weeb]

Warhog

 

"All other pit switches will go to the position I have set them hardwired before unpausing the game. Did you use a modified joystick.lua file or the original one?"

 

Han's modified lua file negated a lot of the synchronization problems, but I am now going Arduino all the way, purely cost related to be perfectly honest.

 

weeb

[MacFevre]

Weeb, I don't mean to hijack your thread so I'll keep it short. But since Warhog posted his Flickr link here, I just wanted to say, @Warhog, I am bowing, humbled before you. Your instruments, I just don't know what to say! They are simply magnificent! If there is anyone more adept at what you've accomplished, I certainly haven't heard. I think we all would be more than honored if you started your own thread.

 

Seriously, just looking at them, they're awe inspiring! But if you could combine that with a little of your knowledge and direction, that would really be the missing link between a pit with merely a flat panel behind it and a true professional simulator.

 

As an aside, you've given me great information about CNCs and the like, but I don't think I could ever come close to your ability. I know I personally would be first in line if you ever hung up a shingle. Please think about it. You know, for us that have been struggling for years between want, knowledge, and actually having.

 

Ok, sorry again. Back to the previously scheduled thread belonging here.

[Warhog]

@Weeb... I maybe should have qualified my statement in that people using the options page to configure switches will run into that problem. If you have the ability to modify individual .lua files then I expect this would not be a concern. I just assume that most new pit builders won't be at a level to make those kind of modifications. I used the options page for my first cockpit build and had those problems. I still do not have the know how to modify .lua files so thank God for Ians software. It eliminates that all together.

 

@Wayne...Thank you for those comments. You are too gracious. I essentially relied on this forum to obtain the know how to make the instruments you saw on my FLICKR site. So I really should be thanking all of the contributors here for their posts. All I bring to the table is my CNC know how and my ability to problem solve which comes from age:( and experience.:music_whistling:

 

The problem solving involved in cockpit building has to be the most rewarding part of this endeavor. However it pales compared to all of the new people I have met and made friends with. :thumbup:

 

you've given me great information about CNCs and the like, but I don't think I could ever come close to your ability

The whole CNC thing is not really about ability. Its money. If you can afford a simple CNC rig and the software you need to run it, the rest is almost easy.

 

This is all I use. Its small and its limited in how large the table is. But its dead nuts accurate as all hell and I can cut half a panel, move the piece, re-register and cut the second half with precision down to .0005". So a small table just requires using some creativity when figuring out how I should cut my panels.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Take the Tacan panel, for example. It JUST fits.

 

 

Learning how to draw panels is easy if you use a simple program such as CamBam. And it also makes the g-code you need to cut the piece. After that it's basically a setup thing with Mach 3 which controls the steppers and then hit enter.

 

The point is, as with flying the A10, you had to learn how to fly it. Same with CNC. Its not rocket science (cause I learned it:P). Its just having the motivation (and money of course:music_whistling:). But you already know that pit building is expensive to begin with.

 

One more point to consider is that, take buttons for example, instead of having to purchase them I made them from scratch. That is a big savings as well.

 

 

How about knobs and switches? Again, easy to make...expensive to buy. That toggle is a normal toggle with a fake top I made for it.

 

 

So, all things considered, I do end up saving a good chunk of money by being able to make these parts in house. And when you subtract that savings from the cost of the machine it slowly starts to look less expensive over the course of building a complete cockpit.

 

Sorry to ramble on like that. I was directing this to Weeb as much as Wayne so you can both get an appreciation of what you can do and the savings you could realise by having your own CNC setup. Also, its know where near the cost of a good laser cutter and much more versatile.

 

Thanks for listening guys.

[weeb]

Weeb, I don't mean to hijack your thread so I'll keep it short. But since Warhog posted his Flickr link here, I just wanted to say, @Warhog, I am bowing, humbled before you. Your instruments, I just don't know what to say! They are simply magnificent! If there is anyone more adept at what you've accomplished, I certainly haven't heard. I think we all would be more than honored if you started your own thread.

 

Seriously, just looking at them, they're awe inspiring! But if you could combine that with a little of your knowledge and direction, that would really be the missing link between a pit with merely a flat panel behind it and a true professional simulator.

 

As an aside, you've given me great information about CNCs and the like, but I don't think I could ever come close to your ability. I know I personally would be first in line if you ever hung up a shingle. Please think about it. You know, for us that have been struggling for years between want, knowledge, and actually having.

 

Ok, sorry again. Back to the previously scheduled thread belonging here.

 

Absolutely No problem McFevre, I'm just stunned at the support and interest my simple thread has brought to the forum. Use this thread for contact, I don't mind. As Warhog says, I suppose it's just a matter of how much you want to spend, personally I have caught the bug, I'm retired now, plenty of time, I'm anal about detail. If I spent money on a cnc machine I would learn cad.

 

@Warhog can you suggest a cnc machine and software in my budget of 1200 euros or is that just not gonna happen for that amount of money?

 

Keep the discussion coming, I'm learning from every post. :thumbup:

[Extranajero]

Weeb - the machine Warhog is using is sold in the UK under the brand name Peatol. I had one of their modellers lathes ages ago and while tiny it was very well made and very accurate.

[weeb]

Weeb - the machine Warhog is using is sold in the UK under the brand name Peatol. I had one of their modellers lathes ages ago and while tiny it was very well made and very accurate.

 

Cheers mate I will give them a look. Appreciated.

 

weeb

[weeb]

This is where it comes apart for me. I went on the site and its a milling machine, need to get side stepper motors etc, add this, add that, I don't know where to start. If I am going to spend £1000+ uk, I need to know I'm not buying a very expensive boat anchor. Thanks for info, I will phone them after the New Year, tell them what I am looking for and what I need it to do and see what they come up with.

 

weeb :thumbup:

[weeb]

2100 Micro mill*‐*complete, manual operation, with ER16 spindle £980.00

2101 Set of 3 NEMA 23 stepper motor mounts and couplers (for converting the mill to CNC)£150.00

2100H Replacement ER16 headstock £85.00

[Warhog]

I'm anal about detail. If I spent money on a cnc machine I would learn cad.

 

Learning how to draw using a PC is not terribly difficult as you will not be needing to do 3d modelling or anything near that complex. As long as you can export your panel drawing as a .dxf file then your good to go.

 

There are a number of CNC machines available. I have a Taig and as much as I love it, a larger table would be very much preferable. I can't really recommend a machine specifically but I can recommend parts of it.

 

With most CNC mills you need to build part of it yourself anyways. It helps you understand its inner workings that way and you will also need to tune it so it performs optimally. Knowing your machine inside and out is important.

 

The first step is of course research. Read a lot on CNC. there are tons of hobby type web sites especially for Taig (Peatol) to explore and learn from. Cartertools.com is a good starter if you go the Taig route. CNCZone (the forum)will be your next best friend. Join and read.

 

These are the basics.

Software: You need the following:

1. Mach 3 CNC Machine Control Software. This is an easy to use, easy to learn, inexpensive, excellent in all respects, piece of software which you need to run the CNC Controller. $175.

 

2. CamBam - Extremely easy to use. Extremely easy to learn. Excellent for the beginner. This is what you use to convert your drawing into G-code so the machine can cut it out. It also comes with a "built in" set of drawing and editing tools. $150.00

 

Hardware:

1. Desktop style of Mill (CNC Ready)

 

2. CNC Machine Controller and cables. This will include the Gecko 540 controller and a 48v PSU. Gecko is the best there is and nothing, and I mean NOTHING else will do. Do not buy a different controller no matter what they try and talk you into buying. It is 100% problem free.

 

3. Nema 23 280oz stepper motors (these are powerful enough to handle most anything in the size of machine we're talking about). When you order a mill, you have motor size as an option so this is the preferred size.

 

4. An extra PC to run it. This PC can be an older type PC with XP on it as long as it has a parallel port. The data stream to the mills controller is so intensive only a parallel port can handle the transmission requirements. A laptop is also out of the question. If your wondering why to these comments, its best you read up on CNC and then your questions will be answered as you learn more about it.

 

Then are a number of odds and ends:

1. Cutters, end mills, drill bits etc.

2. Collets to hold the cutter in the spindle (I use ER-16)

3. Digital calipers

4. 100 metres of double sided tape:lol:. That's what I use to hold the engraving plastic flat to the table. I laugh because its so stupid to use tape on a mill and its so damned expensive but its also the perfect choice.

 

There's probably a bunch more stuff (little things) I haven`t listed but they are things you learn about as you explore the world of CNC. Its an all encompassing hobby that's for sure but once you start into it you become absolutely obsessed. Sorry but its the same disease you get from cockpit building.:P

 

One more thing, as a beginner, stay away from Chinese. Don`t even look at their stuff right now. Its too easy to get taken advantage of when your new and don`t know what you need.

 

Hope that helps as a starter.

[weeb]

Thanks John

 

Huge amount of information to take in and absorb.

 

I am going to do this no matter what! you will probably get pissed off with me and stupid questions.

 

If I can take the prop nut off a submarine at 10 metres under water because it's cheaper than putting it in a dry dock. (Don't ask I won't respond)

 

Means I'm up for it. So the stepper motors do the 90-90 lateral, where does that come in for cutting panels. I take it that's the 90-90 vertical. I know it's simple for you but I am trying to think in 3d here. I think If I get a machine it will be easier, is 1200 euros a fair price for one. Like you I am well versed in ignoring Chinese copies.?

[Extranajero]

weeb - I bought my Peatol lathe about 10 years ago, but if the same guy is still running the company he's very helpful and knowledgeable.

They aren't new to the market, the same basic line of miniature machine tools ( Taig brand in the US, Peatol in the UK ) have been around at least since the mid 1980's

There is a big user community for these machines, help won't be far away.

 

I agree completely with Warhog about Chinese machinery. I have a Sieg X2 ( manual ) mill and it's fine, but only because I am a fairly skilled machinist and was able to take it apart, correct it's defects and put it back together again.

[Warhog]

Thanks John

 

Huge amount of information to take in and absorb.

 

I am going to do this no matter what! you will probably get pissed off with me and stupid questions.

 

If I can take the prop nut off a submarine at 10 metres under water because it's cheaper than putting it in a dry dock. (Don't ask I won't respond)

 

Means I'm up for it. So the stepper motors do the 90-90 lateral, where does that come in for cutting panels. I take it that's the 90-90 vertical. I know it's simple for you but I am trying to think in 3d here. I think If I get a machine it will be easier, is 1200 euros a fair price for one. Like you I am well versed in ignoring Chinese copies.?

 

Don't be concerned with questions. If I'm not here others can help. But as Extranajero was saying there is a huge, and I mean fkin huge Taig community to help you as well. Here's your reading assignment for the year. Call me in 3 months after you finished the reading and we'll discuss the assignment:lol::

 

http://taigownersclub.forumotion.net/

http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php

http://www.cambam.info/

http://www.cartertools.com/

http://www.krupin.net/serendipity/index.php?/archives/52-Novice-guide-to-backlash-adjustment.html

 

Just kidding(but maybe I'm not) :music_whistling: Do look at these sites and spend some time readin and checking the links they provide. That will lead you to more great sites. It just goes on and on. And go to Youtube and do a search for Taig CNC mills. That should give you a visual confirmation as to what you can expect from these machines.

 

When it comes to electronics part I would suggest you buy everything from China. The prices are unbelievable. Even if half of it fails your still way ahead. But I don't think I have had more than one smaller board failure in over $1000 worth of purchases this year. Its pretty good stuff.:thumbup:

 

@ Extranajero I'm pretty sure the Peatol guy is still there. He also wrote a book on the Taig lathe and mill. Good beginners stuff. I too have a Taig lathe. Excellent little machine. I did end up buying a 12x18 lathe as I wanted to do some machine work on some of my firearms and then came the full sized mill. I used it to make a prototype kit for converting a Ruger 1022 rifle into a Thompson Machine Gun look a like. That little project made me enough money to pay for my machine shop and all my tooling.

 

Just so you know, I am not a machinist. Its only hobby stuff that I use this equipment for. I really have a very limited background in metal working so I may not be that big of a resource. I just know what worked for me when I built my first cockpit.

 

BTW, I spent in CDN dollars $3000.00 for everything related to my CNC mill back maybe 13 years ago. That was a decent budget and it got me what I need to learn CNC.

 

Good luck with your project. :)