F-15C IFF whilst tracking

[Xiathorn]

Sorry if this has been answered before, I tried the search button but it didn't kick up anything useful.

 

Scroll to the last paragraph if you don't want to read too much :

 

When you activate radar in the F-15, enemy targets appear as rectangles and friendly contacts appear as round dots. This I can understand, it makes perfect sense, etc. What I would like to know is how to determine if a target is friend or foe AFTER you have locked them. For example, in a merge you don't have the luxury of activating radar and just checking if it's friend or foe, you've got him in front of you for a short period of time as he flies across your 3-9 line, you've gotta lock and then worry about manuvering for a launch. How can you check, quickly and easily, if the target you've locked is not friendly?

 

I know you can determine the aircraft type from the radar, and you could just look out the window and you'd notice that the target is flying an Su-27 or whatever, but as I'm sure you're all aware online very few servers actually have the F-15C vs Su27/33s exclusively, there's always some cross over. Add to that the proverbially promiscuous MiG-29A/S and you've got some fun on your hands.

 

I know the Russian tech shows a little F symbol if the target is friendly, I'm basically asking for a similar thing.

 

Brevity paragraph :

I want to know how to check if a target is friend or foe after I have locked it using the F-15C. I cannot unlock the target to check, much too time consuming. I am aware of the aircraft type indicator, but with 27s on both teams this is unhelpful.

[capttrob]

 

Brevity paragraph :

I want to know how to check if a target is friend or foe after I have locked it using the F-15C. I cannot unlock the target to check, much too time consuming. I am aware of the aircraft type indicator, but with 27s on both teams this is unhelpful.

 

 

You cant. You need to unlock the target and check. Its a bug that hopefully ED will patch. Bore/vertical mode are virtually useless in this game cause you can only IFF with RWS or TWS unlocked. If you are head to head with an experienced MiG driver, the only way to beat him is to bring the hunt into the mountains while in RWS/TWS mode 20 miles. Rolling through the hills, once you get a solid rectangle, lock it, center the steering dot and launch.. .all the while trying to avoid the terrain. Lotsa fun! From what i understand, the real F-15 will have a double box when locked on friendly. I think you can determine IFF on the russian birds when you lock the enemy though. When you are flying a russian bird, it will say LA during lock to launch at enemy, or it will say "F" for friendly on the Hud. Also, you will not be able to IFF with HOJ (home on jam). You need to burn through, then lock, then fire. In the russian jets, i believe you can IFF once burned through HOJ while still being locked on target (dont have to unlock to check).

 

Pilot workload in the F-15 is much greater than any russian jet (edit: in this game). Especially a russian jet equipped with the 27ET. I have flown both and can honestly say the 120's suck in this game compared to the ET or 77. Flying the F-15 I have come in high with TWS on a low target, launching 2 or 3 120's within Rpi, thrust idle, dropping chaff/flares and barrel rolling with course changes (while keeping lock) only to be splashed by an ET or 77. On the flipside. When flying a russian bird, i have launched upwards using an ET or 77, barely moving my plane and dropping a few chaff/flare while getting a hit and watching 3 sticks whiz by me. The russian planes also have an advantage of picking up the enemy visually much sooner. Not that im trying to start another missle debate thread, just giving you some insight...

 

Have fun!

[Xiathorn]

Heh, thanks. I'm disappointed that there's no IFF post-lock, but I guess on the other hand I've been flying for over a year now and never used it (What with it not being there and all) so I guess I'll just have to stick with more frequent communication to my teammates.

 

Thanks for the swift reply!

[capttrob]

Heh, thanks. I'm disappointed that there's no IFF post-lock, but I guess on the other hand I've been flying for over a year now and never used it (What with it not being there and all) so I guess I'll just have to stick with more frequent communication to my teammates.

 

Thanks for the swift reply!

 

Thats another problem i've noticed. There arent many coordinated Blue teams online. Most of the squads fly red so they are on Teamspeak. Usually the Blues are various "weekend warriors" so they dont have TS, or their mic is busted.. or otherwise. So you have to type for communication increasing the F-15 pilot workload further. However, there are some willing to get on TS when flying blue.

[mikoriad]

The only difference between the 77 and the 120 (in Lock-on) is;

 

A, The 77 has 10% greater range

B, The 77 has more drag than the 120 due to the potato masher fins.

 

The sensors on both active radar missiles have been modelled the same.

 

 

Hmm, never heard this before, has it been confirmed or proven? I highly doubt this is true given the effectiveness of each comparatively speaking.

[mikoriad]

 

I see one problem you are having right away, You are firing your 120's from high to a low target and the missile can loss the target within the ground clutter whereas you are firing your R-77's from a low altitude to a high flying target where there is no ground clutter to hide the target from the missile sensor.

See a pattern? ;)

 

 

 

This is supposed to be the ideal launch situation, and how it was designed to be used. That's not a very valid excuse.

[S77th-GOYA]

If you are head to head with an experienced MiG driver, the only way to beat him is to bring the hunt into the mountains while in RWS/TWS mode 20 miles.

 

IMO, that's poor advice for a 15 pilot. MiGs thrive in the mountains. You would be playing to his strengths if you go into the mountains after him.

[capttrob]

The only difference between the 77 and the 120 (in Lock-on) is;

 

A, The 77 has 10% greater range

B, The 77 has more drag than the 120 due to the potato masher fins.

 

The sensors on both active radar missiles have been modelled the same.

 

 

lol... yeah, i've read that too....

 

Scenario: Im coming in at FL280 with a bandit on the deck. I launch close to Rpi (within Rtr) under TWS (no launch warning for enemy). I start my counters while keeping the target locked. I hear his 77 launch, thinking an ET is already on its way. My counters keep me closing in.. i get Rpi, second 120 launch... under TWS. I dont see his plane moving at all. Second 77 warning (probably from the first launch). Another 120 comes off the rails well within Rpi and is active the moment it left never once having visual on the bandit. I start a Split S noticing the enemy target hasnt budged on my radar (altitude or heading). As i dive for the deck dropping chaff/flare, im greeted with the pleasure of the Theater View. I check the debrief and the one and only 77 splashed me, while my 120's went for a nice flight around the map...

 

On the flip side.

 

Scenario 2: I come in low with target on Hud. I lock as i hear his launch. I get LA and launch an ET followed by a 77. I drop a few chaff and flare and flank slightly (not beaming). I pick up the bandit visually and wait. Splash one! Then i get a nice view of his 120's flying on by as i waive hello... ;)

[GGTharos]

Yes, the sensors are the same.

Side from perhaps gimbal limits and FoVs, the following should be true:

 

ARH missiles share the same sensor

SARH missiles share the same sensors

IRH missiles share the same sensor

 

... see the pattern?

 

As for missiles being designed to be fired upwards uh ... you're talkinng about SAMs, right? Because it's defintiely NOT true for AAMs. You cut range up to 1/4 firing upwards, depending on the altitude difference. It's just not modelled very well in LOMAC is all.

 

It is -far- from the ideal situation. The /low/ fighter typically /loses/ the missile combat. This is EXACTLY why you see fighters being built for reduced climb-time and time-to-speed.

[Xiathorn]

Never really found an experienced mig driver then, as I excel in Dogfights more than anything, and have yet to be soundly beaten unless I didn't know the aircraft was there to start with. In fact, I don't think I've ever lost a dogfight online. I've drawn quite a few, but lost? Unless I never knew he was there and he came up on my blind low six.

 

Yes, I know, ego trip of doom.

 

Shoot up is better? That's news. I've always tried to be at high altitude to increase the maximum range. Will try the shoot-up moves more frequently.

[capttrob]

IMO, that's poor advice for a 15 pilot. MiGs thrive in the mountains. You would be playing to his strengths if you go into the mountains after him.

 

Im 80% kill ratio on migs in the mountains. I agree with you that if you dont know the F-15.. shoot at range and turn tail.

 

As far as ground clutter. F15C are made for high alt intercept with a look-down shoot down capability. If one person is saying dont shoot from high, and another say dont tangle with the MiG low... what option does that leave??? lol

[GGTharos]

Be the little stinger guy :D

[capttrob]

Be the little stinger guy :D

 

LMAO.... :icon_supe

 

 

I always thought MANPAD's were for whining combat sim pilots....;)

[S77th-GOYA]

what option does that leave???

 

Leave him alone. Wait until he doesn't have the advantage before you engage.

[capttrob]

He is saying that it is not recommended to engage the MiG low in the mountains where he can use ground cover to manouver behind you and use EOS/heater to slam you in the ass without you knowing about it.

 

 

First he has to manuever behind me and maintain SA....;)

 

I got in a tangle yesterday in the mountains after splashing a few. I was on my way home with no missles left. Picked up a target and went in. Got him visually and we went round and round. I got a few hits with the cannons but not enough to destroy. He fired a few 73's and missed. We lost each other visually after a while so i headed home. He then picked me up on radar and followed me home. As i dropped my gear i see the SAM close to the coast launch. So now i know he is following. I alert the base with several F-15's performing their daily airshows...lol.. as i roll up my gear to engage im splashed by a heater. It was a good kill and i dropped my guard thinking the several F-15 "Thunderbirds" on base would take care of it.. or at the very least. the SAM's. Oh well... live and learn.. (or die and learn.. )

 

Gideon gets credit for that kill ;)

[capttrob]

Leave him alone. Wait until he doesn't have the advantage before you engage.

 

But thats boring..... ;)

[S77th-GOYA]

Yes, flying smart is sometimes boring. The results are pretty enjoyable, however.

 

Also, lack of IFF isn't a bug. It's simply not modeled.

[capttrob]

Yes, flying smart is sometimes boring. The results are pretty enjoyable, however.

 

Also, lack of IFF isn't a bug. It's simply not modeled.

 

I fly smart when i fly passengers. When i play a game, i want to be entertained...;)

 

IFF simply not modelled? Hmmm... why not?

[capttrob]

:icon_lol:

 

I was on the RAF server the other day .

 

Good stuff, thanks for sharing.

 

PS. MiG-29S is fer noobs.... hehe ;)

 

j/k.. i enjoy the challenge. Probably too much.... :icon_supe

[capttrob]

The only difference between the 77 and the 120 (in Lock-on) is;

 

A, The 77 has 10% greater range

B, The 77 has more drag than the 120 due to the potato masher fins.

 

The sensors on both active radar missiles have been modelled the same.

 

 

 

After thinking about this further. I agree they are probably modelled with the same sensors. If you can pick up the 15 visually long before being able to pick up a MiG, imagine the greater effectiveness of the same sensor looking for either target. It probably explains team kills with the 120 when having the enemy locked in a furball only to go after the friendly when losing lock. And no Ice, i dont maddog into a furball. If you notice, my TK's are 7's which were locked onto a rectangle, or what looked like a rectangle due to ghosting at close range... this problem could probably be cured if the IFF was modelled in game correctly. At close range, you cant use bore mode in the F15 at all unless you use RWS/TWS first to IFF. And even then if you switch to bore after seeing a rectangle to lock, bore mode could lock onto a friendly instead. You have to manually lock the target with the F15 at any range or risk a team kill. Using TWS to IFF is also difficult unless you zoom in on the VDS because the target is so dimm. edit: There have been times i have seen a rectangle at close range in the mountains on RWS only to be slapped while trying lock him with my TD while avoiding terrain with the other hand flying the plane, while the rectangle is moving all over the VDS cause im flying to avoid terrain (you can imagine the workload). If I could have used Bore mode and able to IFF on the HUD like its supposed to be, i would have been able to get the jump on launch. Even with the added workload, im still more effective in the mountains... ask Mustang and Woody.. ;)

 

Now i know the 15 has a greater cross section than the MiG, but is this modelled correctly?

[mikoriad]

Much better to hide in the hills and try to make a dogfight out of it then to keep running in head-on. Atleast this way it's (more-or-less) you against him, instead of your faulty equipment against his less faulty equipment. The other 2 options are turn tail and run, or unload your missles and pray for a hit.

[GGTharos]

The F-15 always had a pretty big RCS - has to do with the engine blades being fiarly accessible to enemy radar head-on. IIRC.

 

Anyway ... the -other- solution is to quit mixing planes so you can IFF using the NCTR, but people aren't going to do that just for the poor little eagle drivers.

[capttrob]

Heres a pretty good thread i found regarding IFF from an F-15 Avionics tech...

 

http://forum.lockon.ru/showthread.php?t=13861&page=4

 

Some highlights from the first post...

 

 

 

1. Even if you are tracking HOJ you still can determine if its a friend of foe. Heck, regardless of HOJ period, you lock up a friendly and your HUD should show an X over the target box....thats what IFF is for, and the newer APG-63 does it on its own regardless of the IFF transponder these days.

 

From public resources http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-15.htm

and http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...-15-design.htm

 

"The F-15's versatile pulse-Doppler radar system can look up at high-flying targets and down at low-flying targets without being confused by ground clutter. It can detect and track aircraft and small high-speed targets at distances beyond visual range down to close range, and at altitudes down to tree-top level. The radar feeds target information into the central computer for effective weapons delivery. For close-in dog fights, the radar automatically acquires enemy aircraft, and this information is projected on the head-up display."

 

2. The 20 mile disappearing act! Thats right, funny how 90% of the time when Im tracking a guy around 15-20 miles my contact usually go off my scope for no apparent reason, I then scan like crazy and ironically find them most of the time visually in sight right around my nose. Especially when you pretty much go boresight on the guy cause he is so close in and yet your radar still didnt pick him up before that. Seconds in a dogfight count so much that these problems continue to get me and others killed due to us looking out the window for a visual.

 

More quotes and remember, this is the older version, the newer radars AN/APG-63(v1/v2) are even a heck of alot better

 

"The AN/APG-63 radar is a highly flexible, all-weather multimode radar. The APG-63 radar combines long range acquisition and attack capabilities with automatic features to provide the instant information and computations needed during air-to-air and air-to-surface combat. The APG-63 has been operational since 1973. In 1979, it was the first airborne radar to incorporate a software programmable signal processor. The PSP allows the system to quickly respond to new tactics or accommodate improved modes and weapons through software reprogramming rather than by extensive hardware retrofit. The APG-63 is no longer in production but remains in service. Almost 1,000 APG-63s had been delivered when production ended in 1986. About 700 are still operational in F-15As, Bs, and early model Cs and Ds operated by the U.S. Air Force and the air forces of Israel, Japan, and Saudi Arabia."

[capttrob]

 

Anyway ... the -other- solution is to quit mixing planes so you can IFF using the NCTR, but people aren't going to do that just for the poor little eagle drivers.

 

Yeah, that is frustrating. Seeing 3 29's in front.. then 1 or 2 pop up behind. Only to turn around to check and see its a circle. It gets really exciting when you turn back to the front 29's and see blinking beeping M's coming off the 29's from behind and in front...lol

[GGTharos]

Yes. That was two specific complaints with a lot of marketing hype behind them. He provided good data for the IFF which is great, but ED is already aware of both issues.