F-14 low speed prowess vs Other Aircraft

[Hummingbird]

So you're abandoning all hope of having a well modeled tomcat, right?

 

Most certainly not.

 

However if the ingame F-15 can do a min radius turn at SL with no height loss in 15 sec, then my hopes aren't very high :)

[GGTharos]

Prove it can't be done.

 

Most certainly not.

 

However if the ingame F-15 can do a min radius turn at SL with no height loss in 15 sec, then my hopes aren't very high :)

[Hummingbird]

Prove it can't be done.

 

How about that you prove that it CAN be done?

 

I'd sure like to know how an F-15 is somehow able to beat an A6M2 Zero round a turn.

[GGTharos]

I already did with a good probability. I have a pretty good simulator that simulates the heart of the envelope quite well. In fact it matches the -1's quite well ;)

 

Something tells me that you simply don't understand the subject.

 

How about that you prove that it CAN be done?

 

I'd sure like to know how an F-15 is somehow able to beat an A6M2 Zero round a turn.

[Hummingbird]

I already did with a good probability. I have a pretty good simulator that simulates the heart of the envelope quite well. In fact it matches the -1's quite well ;)

 

Something tells me that you simply don't understand the subject.

 

Alright, case closed then I guess :thumbup:

[Hummingbird]

Just gonna leave this here:

 

"The F-15 has an instantaneous turn rate of 21 deg/sec and a sustained turn rate of about 15 deg/sec."

- Lieutenant General Herbert “Hawk” Carlisle [uSAF]

 

Min radius turn at 15 sec then? ;)

[GGTharos]

At what speed? altitude? payload?

 

Because I can tell you that the F-14 has an instantaneous rate of 28 deg and a sustained rate of 13. How do you feel about that now? Should I just 'leave that here'? It's straight out of the performance charts, too, so where's your min radius at 20 sec now?

[turkeydriver]

Just gonna leave this here:

 

"The F-15 has an instantaneous turn rate of 21 deg/sec and a sustained turn rate of about 15 deg/sec."

- Lieutenant General Herbert “Hawk” Carlisle [uSAF]

 

Min radius turn at 15 sec then? ;)

 

There you go, let's get back to Tomcat's then. If there is any discussion on where DCS can improve its work, lets focus on A-A missiles and AI, and post it in the correct forum.

Good night, that F-15 can turn......

[Hummingbird]

At what speed? altitude? payload?

 

Because I can tell you that the F-14 has an instantaneous rate of 28 deg and a sustained rate of 13. How do you feel about that now? Should I just 'leave that here'? It's straight out of the performance charts, too, so where's your min radius at 20 sec now?

 

In reality, that's where it is.

 

In tests against the F-4, conducted at 385 knots, the F-15 could complete a full 360 degree turn in 24 seconds—half the time of the F-4.

- F-15 Eagle Engaged by Davies and Dildy, 2007.

 

 

360/15 = 24... well what do you know?? ;)

Edited March 15, 2015 by Hummingbird

[GGTharos]

That's so impressive.

 

Does your incredible skill extend to reading official USAF charts, one of which is posted on this very page, showing an STR greater than 15? ;)

[lunaticfringe]

And?

 

On the -1 page GG provided, at SL the F-15C with 41000 lbs will sustain an 8.8G turn at 0.8M, generating a turn rate of 18.5 degrees per second.

 

360/18.5 = 19.45... well what do you know?? That is four and a half seconds faster than the test at 385 knots, and closer to the target of 15 seconds than it it is from said value (24 seconds).

 

Again, configuration is everything. Lower that weight, the degrees per second rate goes up, as the Mach goes *down*. Remove stores, rate goes up as the energy sustained goes up.

 

Simply throwing a value out there is meaningless. And frankly, this is the sort of problem that having the full chart (with the CL max intersection to maximum G, and the doghouse's corner) would illustrate the solution for: a maximum rate turn is started *above* corner, with the express intention of passing through the longest band of degrees per second rate possible.

[GGTharos]

Shhhh ... they might figure out something about BFM, and then what will be do?

[lunaticfringe]

We'll always have the vertical.

[dekiplav]

Sooo .... it's settle now. Tomcat wins in horizontal, Eagle in the vertical. :lol:

[captain_dalan]

We'll always have the vertical.

Good point there :lol:

 

Sooo .... it's settle now. Tomcat wins in horizontal, Eagle in the vertical.

 

Again... not as simple as that. And not just based on loads and weights (although these still matter). Starting positions relative to each other during the entry into a vertical maneuver, as well as weapon envelope will matter a great deal. I.E. an AC with a superb nose pointing ability and a good IR missile can effectively restrict your z-axis, even from a relatively neutral position, as long as it hasn't bled too much of its energy.

 

It's a complicated and rather dynamic thingy this BFM concept. There are seldom clear cut answers to what would seam to be simple questions.

Edited March 15, 2015 by captain_dalan

[Hummingbird]

Funny, I thought we were talking about min radius turns :music_whistling:

 

But hey if you believe that an F-15 can pull off its' min radius turn in 15 sec, then so be it :thumbup:

 

So far even your own chart disproves this however GG, with the fastest turn being done in 19.5 sec at mach 0.8, where the turn radius is 2940.6 feet. (F-14 matched that in the video shown earlier, and at much lower speed)

Edited March 15, 2015 by Hummingbird

[lunaticfringe]

Funny, I thought we were talking about min radius turns :music_whistling:

 

The funny thing about a maximum rate turn over the corner of the doghouse:

 

It becomes a minimum radius turn *real* fast based on the law of averages.

[dekiplav]

Good point there :lol:

 

 

 

Again... not as simple as that. And not just based on loads and weights (although these still matter). Starting positions relative to each other during the entry into a vertical maneuver, as well as weapon envelope will matter a great deal. I.E. an AC with a superb nose pointing ability and a good IR missile can effectively restrict your z-axis, even from a relatively neutral position, as long as it hasn't bled too much of its energy.

 

It's a complicated and rather dynamic thingy this BFM concept. There are seldom clear cut answers to what would seam to be simple questions.

 

I know :), I was joking because the F-14 vs F-15 debate started to get too complicated for the non aero-engineers to follow (charts, calculations etc.) I mean it is a good thing that is going in that direction. :thumbup:

[Hummingbird]

The funny thing about a maximum rate turn over the corner of the doghouse:

 

It becomes a minimum radius turn *real* fast based on the law of averages.

 

I'm sure you're not about to say that the F-15 will do a 360 in 15 sec :)

 

If your entry speed is too high then by the time you've done the 360 then it won't be a min radius turn, unless 2940 feet is the F-15's min turn radius.

[captain_dalan]

I know :), I was joking because the F-14 vs F-15 debate started to get too complicated for the non aero-engineers to follow (charts, calculations etc.) I mean it is a good thing that is going in that direction. :thumbup:

I agree. The best we can do (besides flying) is to try and determine "how" to fight in each plane, so we can maximize our advantages. And surprisingly the answer is the same for pretty much all aircraft. Energy management. Every fight is an energy fight. The one who manages his/her better has best chances for winning.

 

The funny thing about a maximum rate turn over the corner of the doghouse:

 

It becomes a minimum radius turn *real* fast based on the law of averages.

 

That is why there are often "expansions" on the basic terms. Such as best radius at corner. Or best sustained radius. Or even in the case of the F-14, best turn while accelerating (i think this was possible in the B, to actually go through the minimum radius turn and come out faster then when you entered the turn)

[GGTharos]

The F-14 in your video is in an airshow configuration. The Eagle has no problem whatsoever doing a min radius turn in 20 sec in an airshow configuration.

 

I posted the full page of that chart, which very precicely indicates which conditions that chart is valid for: An F-15 with 4xAIM-7, 4xAIM-9, centerline pylon, and gross weight of 41000lbs. Not even close to a clean, 37000lbs eagle ... which can do 18deg/s at M0.48 in a purely sustained turn. That's about 320-330KTAS, off the top of my head.

 

But hey, imagine if it was a clean 34000lbs eagle ... how much lower can I push this speed down now? 300KTAS? Less?

 

But you know, I don't even have to do it that way, I can start at 400, end at 330, and do an average of 24 deg/s, giving me that turn in 15 sec. It's all about technique.

 

Oh and hey, I lose 0 altitude doing it ;)

 

So far even your own chart disproves this however GG, with the fastest turn being done in 19.5 sec at mach 0.8, where the turn radius is 2940.6 feet. (F-14 matched that in the video shown earlier, and at much lower speed)

[GGTharos]

Try 1700 or 1500, depending on which end of it you want to take.

 

If your entry speed is too high then by the time you've done the 360 then it won't be a min radius turn, unless 2940 feet is the F-15's min turn radius.

[lunaticfringe]

I'm sure you're not about to say that the F-15 will do a 360 in 15 sec :)

 

If your entry speed is too high then by the time you've done the 360 then it won't be a min radius turn, unless 2940 feet is the F-15's min turn radius.

 

You absolutely have no idea what you're talking about to make such a patently false statement, and this is explicitly the reason why I've been stating that USAF manuals are deficient in providing the Ps compared to the doghouse. We're not discussing *sustained turns*: we're discussing a turn in which induced drag will pull the aircraft through CV- right at the top of the plot.

 

Fine, start at Mach .8/3000' radius. By the time you're complete at Mach .5 (or thereabouts), your actual radius will be below 2500'. And that's at 15k; bring it down to SL, and you're talking sub-2000' radii with a turn rate in excess of 20+ dps.

 

Nah, F-15 can't do that.

[Hummingbird]

Try 1700 or 1500, depending on which end of it you want to take.

 

Based on the chart you provided:

 

(96.8*562)/(18.5) = 2940 feet

 

I'd be delighted if you could find a video of an F-15 completing a 360 in 15 sec.

[lunaticfringe]

BASED ON THE CHART HE PROVIDED FOR *SUSTAINED RATE TURNS*.

 

Cripes a'mighty.