Another F-14 must watch

[Hummingbird]

Another two F-14 must watch videos. Enjoy! :pilotfly:

Edited January 12, 2016 by Hummingbird

[Hummingbird]

8 min 50 sec in the first video note how he describes the aircraft needing very little if any speed related trim.

[Hummingbird]

Another one:

Lc-k8FeGN-w

 

 

From 19 min 12 sec there's some good info on the aggressors and their capabilities as well as that of the F-14.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Hummingbird

[Hummingbird]

Also at 54 min 34 sec he starts talking about the flight control system, which is really interesting, esp. that it changed to a more capable version.

Edited January 13, 2016 by Hummingbird

[BlackLion213]

Nice find Hummingbird. Though it's a bit funny that several of these Tomcat videos were sponsored by a retirement community near Los Angeles....

 

I guess the Tomcat heyday did pass a while ago. ;) I still think it's cool though....I might have just made it less cool. :)

 

Also at 54 min 34 sec he starts talking about the flight control system, which is really interesting, esp. that it changed two a more capable version.

 

That part was most interesting and a reminder that the Tomcat did not handle "like a sports car". It had impressive capabilities in pitch, but it certainly felt less precise than a lot of other fighters. The slightly sluggish (per NATOPS) low speed pitch response, coupled with a slowish roll rate, and downright messy handling at low speed made for a, ahem, questionable, first impression.

 

I expect that more than a handful of LNS Tomcat customers will submit bug reports for something like: "this thing handles terribly, no fighter could be like this, please fix it!"

 

It will definitely take some learning to get the most out of her, which I love BTW. However, once you learn how to handle the Tomcat, it will do some awesome things, just like your charts have demonstrated. ;)

 

-Nick

[Hummingbird]

The Tomcat should indeed feel abit more mushy as compared to the true fly by wire aircraft of today, but that's part of the charm IMHO and I actually prefer that in an airplane :) It's still precise though according to the pilots, it just feels more like an airplane with mass than for example an F-16 (inertia in rolls for ex.) - until of course you pull back that stick, then it acts like its a feather and does stuff your brain says it shouldn't be capable of :P But at real slow speeds like when on carrier landing approach the nose would wander quite abit and had a tendency to do dutch rolls.

 

The somewhat sluggish response was apparently what the D version's FCS did away with :)

 

I also took note of the part about the trim of the aircraft, was exactly the same as I was told by a cat pilot a long time ago, that the aircraft needed little to no speed related trim, the FCS trimmed the aircraft excellently.

 

Finally the F-14B/D was also the only aircraft that could take off with full stores without burners, a capability the F-18 lacks.

Edited January 13, 2016 by Hummingbird

[BlackLion213]

The Tomcat should indeed feel abit more mushy as compared to the true fly by wire aircraft of today, but that's part of the charm IMHO and I actually prefer that in an airplane :) It's still precise though according to the pilots, it just feels more like an airplane with mass than for example an F-16 (inertia in rolls for ex.) - until of course you pull back that stick, then it acts like its a feather and does stuff your brain says it shouldn't be capable of :P But at real slow speeds like when on carrier landing approach the nose would wander quite abit and had a tendency to do dutch rolls.

 

True, though the "sluggish"/imprecise pitch response relates to small stick inputs with tasks such as mid-air refueling. It's recommended that pilots give the nose a moment to respond before adding additional pitch inputs, otherwise the aircraft has a tendency to develop oscillations (like many aircraft with hydraulic controls). With big pitch inputs, it can develop very impressive pitch rates (STR and ITR as you have demonstrated :)). It's more of a matter of performing precise flight tasks, which are harder in the F-14 than later 4th gen fighters (no surprise).

 

BTW, the DFCS system was actually applied to all fleet Tomcats in the late 1990s, including the A/B/D. The F-14D had a different ARI system that was built into the aircraft on the Grumman assembly line, but the benefits of DFCS were seen in all remaining Tomcats when integrated.

 

I've heard that the DFCS went a long way to improve pilot confidence and certainly helped to reduce pilot workload during traps.

 

That said, i'm glad we are getting the non-DFCS version in DCS. Bad behaviors make for much more fun during flight-sims. ;) I don't get the appeal of creating an extremely detailed physics model to simulate the mechanics of flight, then simulating aircraft with FBW systems that make the aircraft feel like SFM...whats the fun in that? Bring on the irritating dutch rolls I say!

 

-Nick

[Hummingbird]

Agreed.

 

Would be really awesome to see the D version eventually though, esp. because of the added precision bombing capability :)

[Tirak]

Agreed.

 

Would be really awesome to see the D version eventually though, esp. because of the added precision bombing capability :)

 

Has it been stated somewhere that the F-14B will not be LANTIRN capable?

[Hummingbird]

Has it been stated somewhere that the F-14B will not be LANTIRN capable?

 

I was under the impression that we would only be getting the 1991 variant?

[Hummingbird]

Some info on the DFCS from The Home of M.A.T.S.:

 

 

"An F-14D from NAWC AD Patuxent River flew for the first time 14 July 1995 using a new Digital Flight Control System (DFCS) designed to protect aviatiors against unrecoverable flat spins and carrier landing mishaps. Today the system is in service in the Fleet, the first installations occurred in June 1998 at VF-14 and VF-41. These squadrons were the first to deploy with DFCS. The Fleet is now approx 2/3 DFCS-equipped, the final installations will be complete in early 2001.

Since the Tomcat's introduction in the early 1970's, aircraft losses as a result of departures from controlled flight during high angle of attack manuevering and carrier landing mishaps have been well documented. The F-14 can rapidly generate excessive yaw rates during high energy departures, and flying qualities in the approach configuration make the aircraft difficult to land aboard a carrier. The DFCS will replace the analog stability augmentation system and autopilot in the F-14A/B/D, while utilizing the hydromechanical flight copntrol systems already in place.

The new flight control computer commands are designed to automatically apply anti-spin flight control inputs as angle-of-attack and yaw threshols are exceeded. The DFCS also includes aileron-to-rudder interconnect logic to minimize dutch roll characteristics and make heading control easier during landing.

Lt Scott Kelly was the test pilot for the first 1.6-hour flight test of the system, which focused on aircraft stability and approach/landing characteristics, while CDR William Minch was the radar intercept officer and project officer.

In spring 2000 the first pre-production software and hardware for the Digital Flight Control System (DFCS) will arrive at the NAWC in Patuxent River. Together with VX-9 - responsible for operational evaliation - the new flight control system will be tested for a few months to come until operational status is reached. The DFCS will bring enhanced controllability and improved performance in the high angle-of-attack and landing envelope for F-14As, F-14Bs and F-14Ds. Handling qualities were already successfully demonstrated aboard USS Enterprise in October 1999 during numerous landing approaches.

The new DFCS improves the flight characterisitcs including the maximum allowed rolling G forces. During flight tests, DFCS F-14D SD230 sustained extensive structural damage on the starboard engine weekly doors and aft fixed cowl due to the high rolling G! This was not a problem of the DFCS, but the NATOPS didn't restrict the flight envelope for such rolling Gs yet. As of January 2000, restrictions to rolling Gs is 4 g's up to 570 KCAS, 3 g's up to 700 KCAS and 1 g stick input above 700 KCAS/Mach 1.4. Additional restrictions are effective if various external stores are carried. Unless structural solution is found, the restrictions are neccessary with regards to the F-14 fatigue life.

The DFCS will improve the F-14s maneuverability, survivability and reliability and will give the Tomcat an aid for spin avoidance. The pilots will be able to maneuver more aggressively in the flight envelope and also the landing characteristics will improve. At the beginning of its 4th decade of service, the F-14 receives with the DFCS a much needed improvement."

 

http://www.anft.net/f-14/f14-detail-dfcs.htm

[BlackLion213]

I was under the impression that we would only be getting the 1991 variant?

 

Leatherneck stated that the F-14B would be "mid-90's" and no further specifics have been offered. On the topic of LANTIRN, they've said that the exact sensors and available ordinance was not yet determined. So we'll have to wait and see.

 

Some info on the DFCS from The Home of M.A.T.S.:

 

 

"An F-14D from NAWC AD Patuxent River flew for the first time 14 July 1995 using a new Digital Flight Control System (DFCS) designed to protect aviatiors against unrecoverable flat spins and carrier landing mishaps. Today the system is in service in the Fleet, the first installations occurred in June 1998 at VF-14 and VF-41. These squadrons were the first to deploy with DFCS. The Fleet is now approx 2/3 DFCS-equipped, the final installations will be complete in early 2001.

]

 

Nice info, it would seem that the F-14A was actually the first to received DFCS (VF-41 and VF-14 were both F-14A squadrons till they transitioned to F and E Hornets in 2001). I've heard it was a very helpful system for ACM in particular, allowing for crisper rolls and a higher roll rate.

 

-Nick

[Hummingbird]

Would be absolutely awesome if Leatherneck gave the F-14B the DFCS, that way we could experience both the old and new system.

[BlackLion213]

Would be absolutely awesome if Leatherneck gave the F-14B the DFCS, that way we could experience both the old and new system.

 

I bet they've thought about that:

 

Both -A and -B model Tomcats will be included in the DCS: F-14. We are aiming for a mid 80’s model -A Tomcat, and mid-90s’ -B. This, for example, means that the Glove Vanes will be disabled on both models, while other improvements (Engine, Control Systems & More) will differ.

 

This quote is hardly proof of DFCS, but I don't think that the F-14A and B had any significant control system differences since the F-14A+/B's were all built/remanufactured during the very late 1980s - sharing the same control system and SAS with the fleet F-14A's of the time.

 

The F-14D did introduce a new ARI in 1992 that was not retrofitted (IIRC) to the fleet F-14A's or B's, but besides the ARI, even the F-14D's system was fundamentally the same as the other Tomcats.

 

The challenge for adding DFCS to the Leatherneck F-14 is finding the right information about the system/control laws, etc. One great thing about developing the F-14 flight model is that there is good data for the F-14A, both performance and control response data, courtesy of NASA testing and simulators. The data is supposed to be very detailed and very complete (hearsay on my part however). But NASA never tested the DFCS system or DFCS equipped Tomcats (as far as I can tell), so getting adequate info may be much harder.

 

I'd be happy with either DFCS or non-DFCS F-14B, but I'll admit that the late-90's F-14B with LANTIRN and DFCS would offer a stark contrast to the mid-80s F-14A in many respects. That would be a pretty awesome combination.

 

-Nick

[westr]

A working LTS pod would be huge for this module. Don't get me wrong I have no doubts it will be my favourite module when released. But im really hoping for LTS integration. It would stand it way above and beyond anything anybody has ever attempted in terms of an F-14 simulation.

 

I do also believe LN will continue to work on this module well after its initial release, and probably upgrade it in terms of capability. Just my opinion of course. I personally would have no problem paying for any upgrades.

[Hummingbird]

I bet they've thought about that:

 

 

 

This quote is hardly proof of DFCS, but I don't think that the F-14A and B had any significant control system differences since the F-14A+/B's were all built/remanufactured during the very late 1980s - sharing the same control system and SAS with the fleet F-14A's of the time.

 

The F-14D did introduce a new ARI in 1992 that was not retrofitted (IIRC) to the fleet F-14A's or B's, but besides the ARI, even the F-14D's system was fundamentally the same as the other Tomcats.

 

The challenge for adding DFCS to the Leatherneck F-14 is finding the right information about the system/control laws, etc. One great thing about developing the F-14 flight model is that there is good data for the F-14A, both performance and control response data, courtesy of NASA testing and simulators. The data is supposed to be very detailed and very complete (hearsay on my part however). But NASA never tested the DFCS system or DFCS equipped Tomcats (as far as I can tell), so getting adequate info may be much harder.

 

I'd be happy with either DFCS or non-DFCS F-14B, but I'll admit that the late-90's F-14B with LANTIRN and DFCS would offer a stark contrast to the mid-80s F-14A in many respects. That would be a pretty awesome combination.

 

-Nick

 

Hadn't even noticed that they had said that, that is promising indeed!

 

Definitely hope we will be getting the DFCS equipped F-14B, and with that message I am pretty confident that we will :)

 

Regarding finding information on the system, I'm going to venture the guess that they already have it, why? Because I have it :D

[Hummingbird]

Guess it deserves its own thread actually.