EWR and ECM

[sirscorpion]

Can some one please point me to what are the ECM capability on the M2000?

 

What functions are working, what is the explanation to the ECM panel switches and RWR functions? the PDF is a bit light on details. are any of the functions working?

[Badger1-1]

Id also like to know that

[Ashilta]

I'm struggling to determine the difference between the left and right most switches on the panel in question... BR and JJ I think they're termed?

[Azrayen]

Can some one please point me to what are the ECM capability on the M2000?

I presume your question is about DCS M-2000C, not the real aircraft, so here go:

- BR switch to On => ECM is active.

- BR switch to Off => ECM is not active.

 

Simple as that ;)

 

I'm struggling to determine the difference between the left and right most switches on the panel in question... BR and JJ I think they're termed?

BR = Brouilleur => Jammer

LL = Lance-Leurres => Decoys dispensers (chaff & flares)

 

++

Az'

[sirscorpion]

I presume your question is about DCS M-2000C, not the real aircraft, so here go:

- BR switch to On => ECM is active.

- BR switch to Off => ECM is not active.

 

Simple as that ;)

 

 

BR = Brouilleur => Jammer

LL = Lance-Leurres => Decoys dispensers (chaff & flares)

 

++

Az'

 

Thanks for the info.

 

In regards to the "PA/VA" switch, far left dial on the ECM panel, the manual says its an ECM so strong that it also jams your own radar. Any details on how it works? "In game" or is it even working?

 

And what is the function of the far right "1-10" ECM power dial?

 

I know the MWR for IR is not in game as well.

 

Thank you once more

[Jarama]

Thanks for the info.

 

In regards to the "PA/VA" switch, far left dial on the ECM panel, the manual says its an ECM so strong that it also jams your own radar. Any details on how it works? "In game" or is it even working?

 

And what is the function of the far right "1-10" ECM power dial?

 

I know the MWR for IR is not in game as well.

 

Thank you once more

 

So the modes for the ECM on the far left dial are the following

 

- VEI. (Veille) Stand-by

- [ ] On

- PCM (Priorité Contre-mesures) Counter measures priority, might jam your own RADAR.

 

As far as i know only the regular ECM is implemented so far, so leave it to the square.

 

The Auto.-1-10 power dial to the far right should be the jammer Strenght if the tooltip is right, although the manual states it's the decoy programs. a Dev answer is welcome on that :). It's not working as of now.

Edited February 29, 2016 by Jarama

[Azrayen]

So the modes for the ECM on the far left dial are the following

 

- VEI. (Veille) Stand-by

- [ ] On

- PCM (Priorité Contre-mesures) Counter measures priority, might jam your own RADAR.

 

As far as i know only the regular ECM is implemented so far, so leave it to the square.

Correct.

 

The Auto.-1-10 power dial to the far right should be the jammer Strenght if the tooltip is right, although the manual states it's the decoy programs. a Dev answer is welcome on that :). It's not working as of now.

The tool-tip is wrong (actually I though it was updated by now... but I'm at work, can't confirm).

This control sets which of the pre-planned decoy programs is to be used when LL is in the "S.A." position.

 

LL:

A = Arrêt / Off

S.A. = Semi-Automatic

A. = Automatic

In both S.A. and A., the pilot also may launch decoys manually (through dedicated controls on the HOTAS).

This is for the RL aircraft; I didn't test what Razbam has implemented yet on that topic.

[nomdeplume]

In regards to the "PA/VA" switch, far left dial on the ECM panel, the manual says its an ECM so strong that it also jams your own radar. Any details on how it works? "In game" or is it even working?

Not implemented, you can see some discussion in this thread: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=2616263

 

Short version is nobody really knows exactly what it means, and ECM/EW modelling in DCS is so basic that it's largely meaningless and adding it only for the Mirage would be kind of weird.

[sirscorpion]

@Azrayen,@Jarama,

 

Thank you for the assistance.

 

@nomdeplume, I dont see how making it for the m2000 is "weird". but hank you for the link.

[nomdeplume]

@nomdeplume, I dont see how making it for the m2000 is "weird". but hank you for the link.

Weird in the sense that no other aircraft in the game has this level of simulation, so either you make a special "super powerful ECM mode" for when you prioritise ECM over the radar, or a "super weak ECM mode" for when you prioritise radar over ECM, and no other aircraft in the game has this. But all aircraft in the game should be affected by their own jammers (and other jammers, of course) to some extent.

 

So, it'd be some made-up stuff on top of a very very basic EW environment, and it would be weird for a third-party developer to either cripple or enhance their particular aircraft trying to simulate something the rest of the game world does not even think about.

[Azrayen]

Well said, nomdeplume :)

Clear, concise, efficient. Kudos!

[sirscorpion]

@nomdeplume,

 

thing is we do not have a single ECM fighter that is DCS quality, only one on track for that is the M2000. so in terms of weird, its not but it is for sure setting a precedent.

 

but the link provided is that no one knows how the ECM work so yeah, i get it. thank you for the explinaton though

[Jacks]

So the LL switch is used for deploying decoys so how do this switch differ to the countermeasure box on the left near the canopy as both of them control decoys?

 

Also the D2M switch is for IR detection, how does it indicate an IR detection to the pilot and does the mirage have an IR jammer like the frogfoot?

[Zeus67]

So the LL switch is used for deploying decoys so how do this switch differ to the countermeasure box on the left near the canopy as both of them control decoys?

 

Also the D2M switch is for IR detection, how does it indicate an IR detection to the pilot and does the mirage have an IR jammer like the frogfoot?

 

No IR Jammer. But for the rest, nobody outside the military and the manufacturer knows how the system works. This is one of those heavily classified systems that probably will not be made public until the 22nd century.

 

All we can do is make assumptions based on images, videos and even movies. :book:

 

We believe that the countermeasure box near the canopy is the control box for the éclair pod.

[Azrayen]

We believe that the countermeasure box near the canopy is the control box for the éclair pod.

Oh, this is more than a belief, you can make that sure, Zeus :)

[Robin_Hood]

@nomdeplume,

 

thing is we do not have a single ECM fighter that is DCS quality, only one on track for that is the M2000. so in terms of weird, its not but it is for sure setting a precedent.

 

but the link provided is that no one knows how the ECM work so yeah, i get it. thank you for the explinaton though

 

The A-10C has ECM, which is still at the very basic electronic warfare modeling level

[ZHeN]

I've noticed R550s can't lock on targets if "music" is on. I'm not sure that's correct. Can you guys fix it in the next update?

[nomdeplume]

I've noticed R550s can't lock on targets if "music" is on. I'm not sure that's correct. Can you guys fix it in the next update?

Can you clarify - you mean if your own ECM is on it can't lock targets? And you're talking about R-550 Magic 2, not R-530D Super?

 

Anyway, I just did a flight and destroyed two MiG-21 with my ECM on. One with two Magics (decoyed the first one), second with a single 530.

 

Your own ECM could conceivably degrade your radar's performance, although I think Razbam chose not to try to model that since none of the other DCS aircraft do (or they might still be considering it). Obviously it should have no effect on the R-550.

 

So: how did you test/determine the ECM was preventing R-550s from locking? And was it on 1.5 or 2.0? Keep in mind Magics currently only lock at the boresight cross, the radar slave functionality is not implemented yet.

[ZHeN]

Can you clarify - you mean if your own ECM is on it can't lock targets?

that's correct, I mean my own ECM

And you're talking about R-550 Magic 2, not R-530D Super?

that's correct, I'm talking about R-550 Magic 2 - the heat seeking one - that's why I'm wondering!

Obviously it should have no effect on the R-550.

that's right! but it does have effect on the 550's!

 

So: how did you test/determine the ECM was preventing R-550s from locking? And was it on 1.5 or 2.0?

my mod version is 1.5.3

I've been getting this issue since I had bought the mod - from the very beginning. First I found out TIR indication with radar lock on target doesn't mean Magic has locked. But then I've found out that ECM was the problem for Magics.

Okay, here's how I use ECM:

1. I turn the far left dial to the left (VEI) mode.

2. BR, D.M., D/A, LL - all to M position

3. Turn the "INTRG" Knob all the way up.

 

yes, I know, after I've read this thread, I understood I was doing it wrong. and the only switch I actually needed was BR.

 

but still, after you know the procedure I was carrying out, what do you think was causing troubles for my Magics ?

Keep in mind Magics currently only lock at the boresight cross, the radar slave functionality is not implemented yet.

yes, I'm keeping that in mind

Edited April 25, 2016 by ZHeN

[mattebubben]

that's correct, I mean my own ECM

 

that's correct, I'm talking about R-550 Magic 2 - the heat seeking one - that's why I'm wondering!

 

 

so now there's no sence using Mirage's own ECM? right?

 

 

that's right! but it does have effect on the 550's!

 

 

my mod version is 1.5.3

I've been getting this issue since I had bought the mod - from the very beginning. First I found out TIR indication with radar lock on target doesn't mean Magic has locked. But then I've found out that ECM was the problem for Magics.

Okay, here's how I use ECM:

1. I turn the far left dial to the left (VEI) mode.

2. BR, D.M., D/A, LL - all to M position

3. Turn the "INTRG" Knob all the way up.

 

yes, I know, after I've read this thread, I understood I was doing it wrong. and the only switch I actually needed was BR.

 

but still, after you know the procedure I was carrying out, what do you think was causing troubles for my Magics ?

 

yes, I'm keeping that in mind

 

I have no problem getting the R.550s to lock even when using my ECM.

 

And as he stated While in real life onboard tend to reduce the effectiveness of the radar (not something unique to the mirage) this is not implemented in DCS as none of the other Fighters with internal ECM has the negation.

 

Just make sure to try to put the target in the area of the Boresight cross.

 

And you should get a Lock.

[VTJS17_Fire]

The A-10C has ECM, which is still at the very basic electronic warfare modeling level

If you mean the options, it's more than basic compared to the other FC3 aircraft.

 

In the A-10C you can set different jammer profiles (SAM 1, SAM 2, Air; IIRC) and you can set different decoy programms.

[IASGATG]

This thread has boiled down to realism vs balance.

 

So here is the question to the dev's and the community, it's a thought experiment so don't get hung up on the real life ramifications and the obvious "But 'Scat obviously you can't because bla bla bla".

 

If reliable information was provided about the Mirage's jammer, how it works and how it effects other radar systems, would it be implemented? Is the answer yes? Or does it also have to hinge off of "Well it depends on if it makes the Mirage's jammer worse than everyone else's or better." I feel as though we're too happy to undermodel aircraft for the sake of balance.

[Azrayen]

Okay, here's how I use ECM:

1. I turn the far left dial to the left (VEI) mode.

2. BR, D.M., D/A, LL - all to M position

3. Turn the "INTRG" Knob all the way up.

Way too complicated ;)

1. is not modelized for now (I hope it will be possible), even without the PCM feature that is not possible in DCS

2. one switch is enough for ECM => http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2696349&postcount=4

3. useful, but no relation with ECM

 

 

If you mean the options, it's more than basic compared to the other FC3 aircraft.

 

In the A-10C you can set different jammer profiles (SAM 1, SAM 2, Air; IIRC) and you can set different decoy programms.

 

[nitpick]A-10C is not a FC3 aircraft[/nitpick]

 

And more importantly, those profiles are "just" displays for the pilot. Nothing changes regarding the simulation itself, it's still the same basic music on/music off underneath.

 

If reliable information was provided about the Mirage's jammer, how it works and how it effects other radar systems, would it be implemented? Is the answer yes? Or does it also have to hinge off of "Well it depends on if it makes the Mirage's jammer worse than everyone else's or better." I feel as though we're too happy to undermodel aircraft for the sake of balance.

Rest assured that the current implementation choice is not undermodelling in the sense that you don't deprive the M-2000 of an advantage for the sake of balance (nor the other way around FWIW).

 

Plus, those choices are not in the hands of Razbam. They can't change the way other aircraft react to M-2000 ECM. They can just change the way M-2000 (radar) will react to other aircraft ECM (and that's a topic they are working on just now, as shown in last patch notes).

 

Finally, balance is not evil, I wouldn't discard it "by default". I certainly don't mean we should "sacrifice all" for balance, but on the other hand if we have too many undermodeled systems vs overmodeled systems we'll not have any fun anymore flying together => bad policy for all, community/customers and editors.

I'm happy ED retain some sort of "quality control" for the various modules, so that we don't have a FS-like environnement (because in DCS we fly against each other and not just side by side).

 

++

Az'

[ZHeN]

Way too complicated ;)

1. is not modelized for now (I hope it will be possible), even without the PCM feature that is not possible in DCS

2. one switch is enough for ECM => http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2696349&postcount=4

3. useful, but no relation with ECM

yeah-yeah, I wrote about this:

yes, I know, after I've read this thread, I understood I was doing it wrong. and the only switch I actually needed was BR.

 

but some of my actions make my R550's seekers unfunctional. Now I wonder which one of them?

[Azrayen]

yeah-yeah, I wrote about this

Oh, sorry, didn't saw your edit before posting (I begun writing my answer before going to lunch, and posted it only when I came back...):doh:

 

but some of my actions make my R550's seekers unfunctional. Now I wonder which one of them?

I assume you were able to reproduce the issue? If yes, why not save & post a short track showing the problem, along with timings+explanations (e.g. "at time 12:02:18, I press the lock button but nothing happens"). That way we could look at it (or Razbam could, if need be).

 

++

Az'