Update of R-27R/T/ER/ET guidance system with inertial/radio command update

[GGTharos]

No problem, this is a difficult subject and it takes years to get good info- and that's when you're persistent.

[JunMcKill]

No problem, this is a difficult subject and it takes years to get good info- and that's when you're persistent.

 

I agree! I have been sweating asking to former colleagues in the Cuban Armed Forces because they have R-27R and R-73 in the MIG-29A

[GGTharos]

We're not talking about data that can be argued, we're talking about the 'real deal' documents.

 

There are no documents showing the aerodynamic coefficients which is the argument at hand between IASGATG (and mine) and Chizh's position on how to interpret certain data.

 

To this I want to say that people still argue their data is incorrect...

Refering to IASGATGs missile mod thread, in which he argued with a developer about their missiles performance in game.

[GGTharos]

I had some contact with people who are aware of the operation of these systems from a couple of countries; the 90's Russian RWRs apparently did not produce a launch warning even for AMRAAMs (for some air forces).

 

I also know that producing the warning can be a doctrinal choice, and not necessarily a system limitation.

 

As well, I have some western RWR documents that indisputably show the capability to generate launch warning for many types of contacts.

 

In the end, everything is 'best guess', and sometimes things are too ambiguous given our available knowledge.

 

I agree! I have been sweating asking to former colleagues in the Cuban Armed Forces because they have R-27R and R-73 in the MIG-29A

[Veritech]

To this I want to say that ED had a lot of knowledge about the 27 series, down to some diagrams for the eccm circuits for the export versions iirc.

 

Export missile and RWR versions are known to be downgraded from the actual equipment that the Soviet VVS and the 90s Russian Air Force had. So I don't know how accurate could that information be (of course, it could be more accurate than the usual malarkey we find around in internet with a superficial research).

[Veritech]

I had some contact with people who are aware of the operation of these systems from a couple of countries; the 90's Russian RWRs apparently did not produce a launch warning even for AMRAAMs (for some air forces).

 

I also know that producing the warning can be a doctrinal choice, and not necessarily a system limitation.

 

As well, I have some western RWR documents that indisputably show the capability to generate launch warning for many types of contacts.

 

In the end, everything is 'best guess', and sometimes things are too ambiguous given our available knowledge.

 

The RWR on the Serbian Mig-29s was not operational due to lack of servicing. Unfortunately the Yugoslavian (later Serbian) Air Force fell into disrepair after 1990.

[Seaeagle]

Great...I wasn´t referring to that...I was referring to the exact steps, IN ORDER, that the missile goes through prior and post launch.

 

You said that it is "up for grabs" whether modern(I guess you mean post-Vietnam era) SARH missiles requires seeker lock-on prior to launch.

 

Thats what I was responding to - and in the case of the R-27R/ER(thread subject) there is no such ambiguity.

 

I could previously only find information on the very old Sparrows. Newer Sparrows essentially function completely differently then the old Vietnam Era ones and thus might have different processes.

 

Yes they do and there are also differences among the "newer Sparrows". IIRC the latest AIM-7P version(upgraded AIM-7M) comes in two variants - a Block I and a Block II, where only the latter has rearward facing antenna for radio correction.

 

But again the thread subject is the R-27 and for this there is only one SARH guidance system, which in turn is the same for both R-27R and -ER(same seeker unit) and this involves inertia with command update for cruise stage followed by terminal SARH.....i.e. lock-on-after-launch.

 

And since you obviously know, please, point me to the exact rundown of all systems and steps, and their function, during the launch of an R-27ER, I´d love to see em, I don´t think I saw them in this post apart from GGTharos´s post, which wasn´t missile specific.

 

- aircraft radar locks onto target in STT mode.

 

- WCS compares target parameters to missile ditto and determines when the target is within range for launch.

 

- missile is prepared for launch(power-up, self test etc) - target coordinates are passed to missile INS and seeker is tuned to aircraft radar frequency.

 

- missile is launched and is steered towards target by its INS based on pre-launch target fix, and updated ones transmitted to it by aircraft radar post-launch.

 

- at terminal stage when the radar seeker is in range to see target reflected returns(aircraft radar emission), it produces its own target fix and passes this on to the INS - thereby overriding the ones transmitted to it by the aircraft radar.

 

The INS is using proportional navigation method both during midcourse guidance and terminal homing(SARH). As far as I remember my sources, when launched by the MiG-29 WCS, radio correction can be transmitted to the in-flight R-27R up to a range of some 25 km relative to launching aircraft, while radar seeker acquisition range is some 20-25 km against target RCS of 3m2.

 

I don't know if this is specific enough for you, but it should be enough to understand how the guidance system works.

[GGTharos]

That's a funny conclusion in the face of existing, contradictory internet sources.

 

I prefer information from those who were there anyway if the opportunity presents - much better info than internet blah blah usually. ;)

 

The RWR on the Serbian Mig-29s was not operational due to lack of servicing. Unfortunately the Yugoslavian (later Serbian) Air Force fell into disrepair after 1990.

[Veritech]

That's a funny conclusion in the face of existing, contradictory internet sources.

 

I prefer information from those who were there anyway if the opportunity presents - much better info than internet blah blah usually. ;)

 

Still as valid as a downgraded piece of equipement :)

[Veritech]

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=72961

 

What I've found in our own forums.

 

Unfortunately the videos are not up anymore. So that's internet information from the very Serbian Mig-29 pilots.

[JunMcKill]

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=72961

 

What I've found in our own forums.

 

Unfortunately the videos are not up anymore. So that's internet information from the very Serbian Mig-29 pilots.

 

The links are broken, but you're right, I remember watched the video of one of the surviving pilot talking about the bad state of the aircrafts, remember that one of them have no MFD and RWR and had to relay in the other one to find the targets, at the same time, they flew with no GCI, because they were off/destroyed due the allied bombing.