Su-25T Unguided Rockets Tute Problems

[Horns]

I've had a couple of issues with the tutorial for Su-25T unguided rockets.

 

The first problem is interpreting the voice-over instruction "as you pass through the top gate, roll the aircraft inverted and pull your nose down to the target". I know 'inverted' usually means 'upside down', but I tried rolling 180 degrees to upside down several times, and besides disorienting me and making the screen red out, I wasn't able to hit the target at all. I tried rolling 90 degrees and that seemed to work better. Does the instruction mean roll just 90 degrees, or all the way over?

 

The bigger issue is that I'm not able to correctly identify the target - to be clear, the problem is not that I can't hit what I aim at, but that I'm not sure where to aim. Hitting the ground directly below the red smoke doesn't do it, and I usually can't see the trucks until I'm in such a deep dive that I crash. Can anyone suggest a way to ID the targets sooner?

 

If I am ultimately not able to consistently complete this lesson, how much of a handicap would it be in the rest of the game if I were unable to use rockets effectively? For any of you who have real-world experience, would you consider a pilot incomplete if he couldn't deliver rockets well?

[Fri13]

The russian aircrafts are designed to be flyed with G's, as they can't handle so well the negative G, because the small reserve fuel tank that holds fuel for engines when in negative G doesn't get filled fast enough by a fuel pumps. So higher or longer negative G and you get engines shut down.

 

So when you need to get high angle dive, you need to roll and do normal pull.

 

To identify the targets, it is little tough on DCS as LOD (3D modeling thing) is such that in one angle the unit might disappear totally and then from opposite side it can pop-up clearly. It is about the ground texture and the angle of view point when it happens. It is semi realistic as shadows are ones that usually reveal you if not the shape and colors.

 

And yes, you should be experienced with rockets as those are even today one of the most critical CAS weapons you can use. You get lots of them, you can saturate large area or attack multiple softer targets. And on battle field there are more softer targets than best armored MBT (and even those would get damaged from a rockets and their fragments when hitting to few meter distances).

 

But don't worry about that tutorial, you can make a simple mission yourself and train there for rocket runs if you like. Like put a 10x M113 on clear visible area and locate a Su-25T with two S-8KOM (AT) or S-8OFP (HE) rocket pods to about 10km distance so you have time to spot targets and make the approach at different altitudes if you want. Keep the infinite ammo disabled so you don't get the idea to just blast everything out of the map! ;-)

[Frederf]

Red out should not normally happen in an approach to unguided rocket delivery. The purpose of the bank is to be able to transition from normal flight into the dive by pulling positive vertical load. The bank is then removed after the nose is repositioned. For example level to 30 degree dive would be roll invert, pull strongly the nose below horizon, and then roll upright.

 

More common than a straight ahead dive entry with two half-rolls is to incorporate a 60-90 degree turn. First the airplane is banked 90 plus about half the dive angle and pulled left or right in a descending turn to face the target and then roll upright. In this way the airplane may be banked ~115 to enter the dive and ~115 again to roll upright to attack. This is less than 180+180 and also visibility to the side before the turn is often better than straight ahead.

 

If the pilot can stomach the zero or negative loading (and there is enough time and space available) pushing forward on the stick is a suitable way to transition to dive.

 

The Su-25 should make good use of the Shkval TV screen to see the target more easily than with the naked eye. Ground or helicopter-based targeting help is very valuable.

 

Rocket aptitude while being a realistic required skill to master, the Vikhr is arguably the most important weapon the Su-25 carries and poor S-8 rocket aptitude is probably not critical to success.

[MikeMikeJuliet]

Fri13 and Frederd put pretty much all the points to the table, so I'll try to recap and keep it brief and simple:

 

What the tutorial asks you to do, is to get your nose down for the attack. It is faster (and in real life way more comfortable) to roll upside down, pull the nose down and turn upright again. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

As you are trying to find the targets, it may be a good idea to hit pause for the first couple of tries so you have infinite time to zoom in on the target area and try to spot what you are shooting at. This is not viable in the long run, but can be used to get your eyes and brain accustomed to spotting the targets by naked eye.

 

 

Regards,

MikeMikeJuliet

[Fri13]

 

As you are trying to find the targets, it may be a good idea to hit pause for the first couple of tries so you have infinite time to zoom in on the target area and try to spot what you are shooting at. This is not viable in the long run, but can be used to get your eyes and brain accustomed to spotting the targets by naked eye.

 

LOL

 

I always forget that pause feature... I have it even binded to HOTAS and yet I never use it as it is "immersion killer".

 

Yeah, best advice to give to training when trying to learn spotting targets without wanted to get frustrated! ;)

[MikeMikeJuliet]

LOL

 

I always forget that pause feature... I have it even binded to HOTAS and yet I never use it as it is "immersion killer".

 

Yeah, best advice to give to training when trying to learn spotting targets without wanted to get frustrated! ;)

 

Yea, it gets forgotten easily. The best tool when teaching beginners or learning a new system airborne. It gives you time to assess your situation while you are yet unable to "keep all the balls in the air at once". We use it in our squadrons practices to sort of check and recap things as they happen. As you get proficient in any subject you require the pause less and less, so it sort of eliminates itself after a while.

 

Handy.

[Horns]

The russian aircrafts are designed to be flyed with G's, as they can't handle so well the negative G, because the small reserve fuel tank that holds fuel for engines when in negative G doesn't get filled fast enough by a fuel pumps. So higher or longer negative G and you get engines shut down.

 

So when you need to get high angle dive, you need to roll and do normal pull.

 

To identify the targets, it is little tough on DCS as LOD (3D modeling thing) is such that in one angle the unit might disappear totally and then from opposite side it can pop-up clearly. It is about the ground texture and the angle of view point when it happens. It is semi realistic as shadows are ones that usually reveal you if not the shape and colors.

 

And yes, you should be experienced with rockets as those are even today one of the most critical CAS weapons you can use. You get lots of them, you can saturate large area or attack multiple softer targets. And on battle field there are more softer targets than best armored MBT (and even those would get damaged from a rockets and their fragments when hitting to few meter distances).

 

But don't worry about that tutorial, you can make a simple mission yourself and train there for rocket runs if you like. Like put a 10x M113 on clear visible area and locate a Su-25T with two S-8KOM (AT) or S-8OFP (HE) rocket pods to about 10km distance so you have time to spot targets and make the approach at different altitudes if you want. Keep the infinite ammo disabled so you don't get the idea to just blast everything out of the map! ;-)

 

 

Red out should not normally happen in an approach to unguided rocket delivery. The purpose of the bank is to be able to transition from normal flight into the dive by pulling positive vertical load. The bank is then removed after the nose is repositioned. For example level to 30 degree dive would be roll invert, pull strongly the nose below horizon, and then roll upright.

 

More common than a straight ahead dive entry with two half-rolls is to incorporate a 60-90 degree turn. First the airplane is banked 90 plus about half the dive angle and pulled left or right in a descending turn to face the target and then roll upright. In this way the airplane may be banked ~115 to enter the dive and ~115 again to roll upright to attack. This is less than 180+180 and also visibility to the side before the turn is often better than straight ahead.

 

If the pilot can stomach the zero or negative loading (and there is enough time and space available) pushing forward on the stick is a suitable way to transition to dive.

 

The Su-25 should make good use of the Shkval TV screen to see the target more easily than with the naked eye. Ground or helicopter-based targeting help is very valuable.

 

Rocket aptitude while being a realistic required skill to master, the Vikhr is arguably the most important weapon the Su-25 carries and poor S-8 rocket aptitude is probably not critical to success.

 

 

Fri13 and Frederd put pretty much all the points to the table, so I'll try to recap and keep it brief and simple:

 

What the tutorial asks you to do, is to get your nose down for the attack. It is faster (and in real life way more comfortable) to roll upside down, pull the nose down and turn upright again. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

As you are trying to find the targets, it may be a good idea to hit pause for the first couple of tries so you have infinite time to zoom in on the target area and try to spot what you are shooting at. This is not viable in the long run, but can be used to get your eyes and brain accustomed to spotting the targets by naked eye.

 

 

Regards,

MikeMikeJuliet

 

 

Thank you all for the awesome info, I now understand how to perform the maneuver, and that it is a tactic to combat an unfriendly g load. I appreciate the suggestions for target acquisition too, I suspect the LOD issue is the one to blame since seeing the trucks does seem very angle-dependent, and pausing will allow me to confirm that one way or the other. Thanks again :)

[MikeMikeJuliet]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you all for the awesome info, I now understand how to perform the maneuver, and that it is a tactic to combat an unfriendly g load. I appreciate the suggestions for target acquisition too, I suspect the LOD issue is the one to blame since seeing the trucks does seem very angle-dependent, and pausing will allow me to confirm that one way or the other. Thanks again :)

 

Good to hear it worked for you. The LOD and rendering issues do indeed complicate air-to-ground combat. I do believe the issue rised when the 2D render turns into a 3D render (= when the ground object first appears larger than an individual pixel on your monitor). This usually happens far enough that the object - now being drawn with shadows and light acting on it - seems to disappear until it is large enough for you to spot it against the ground.

 

Sometimes you can see this in a way that you actually see the targets better if you zoom OUT to keep the targets rendered as 2D... I imagine the whole thing will be tweaked as the new grapchics engine matures.

 

Regards,

MikeMikeJuliet