Problems with trim and overall stability in level flight

[Redglyph]

Problems 1-3 were due to the FFB option in Misc settings, the other problems are not directly related and at the end of the post.

 

It would be good to prevent this problem by detecting whether the joystick is actually FFB or not, or having a checkbox on the SA342 page with the other FFB settings!

 

Also, in the manual, pg 14 and 16,

- "not recommended for non-FFB joysticks", it is not clear, does it mean we should not use the magnetic brake on the stick, or on the panel, or both... ?

- "recommended for non-FFB joystick", again, it is not clear, must we avoid that (and what exactly?) if it's an FFB joystick?

Aren't those set by the main settings option?

 

My original problem report:

Version: DCS 2.1.1.11317.285

(comparisons made with DCS 1.5.7.11476.394)

 

Problems with trim and overall stability in level flight.

 

Note: Module has been re-installed, control settings removed and reprogrammed, in order to rule out any remnant from a previous version.

 

Whether autopilot is on or off, I observe the following 3 issues. Also whether it's a cold start or a hot start.

 

1) Trim nose up/down seems to be inverted.

 

The control settings show this: joystick hat up=trim nose down, hat down=trim nose up.

 

When I press hat down, first there is nothing and after several nudges the Gazelle dives abruptly and I have to apply a lot of back pressure to prevent it from crashing. So those controls seem reversed.

 

(In 1.5.7 it's not, a nudge with hat up/trim nose down makes the attitude angle decrease.)

 

Note: every nudge I see the stick moving a bit but going back in its position right after (in 1.5.7 it moves by bits, does not come back to its original position).

 

2) Trim is not progressive, it's all-or-nothing.

 

See description in 1) above.

(In 1.5.7 it's not, each nudge changes the angle a bit.)

 

3) Level flight is not possible.

 

It's not really possible to flight level with this version. There is no spot on the cyclic pitch axis that allows it, it seems to respond only after the command is past a certain angle. So If I'm flying forward (OGE, let's say 120 km/h) and climbing, I press the stick forward slightly and progressively:

- first it does nothing

- after a certain angle it suddenly pitch forward a lot, and increasingly, I have to apply back pressure to resume a normal attitude (but then it climbs again)

- sometimes it's possible to stabilize it, but ususally it's by large attitude increments, so it's possible to climb or to descend, and the user has to oscillate between the two modes.

 

Again I don't see this in 1.5.7. And with the autopilot and trim, it's also possible to, well, trim the cyclic (by small increments and not just "dive or pull up a lot").

 

Five other issues

 

4) There also is a puzzle for me, there are two commands "Magnetic brake On/Off" and "Magnetic Brake On/Off" on two different panels, did I miss something in the cockpit preparation?

 

5) It's not possible to move the "Cockpit vibration" in the special settings. It takes a lot of clicking around to finally be able to move the slider, sometimes I can't do it at all. The other sliders are fine.

 

6) The starter is ON in hotstart (so is the pump).

 

7) Manual is incomplete

 

8 ) When the altimeter is calibrated from 1019 to 1020, it reads "1010", the last digit is back to zero before the other digits are incremented.

Edited November 15, 2017 by Redglyph

[SnowTiger]

It appears you are having a couple of the same or similar Trim issues that I'm having (as can be seen in the following thread >>)

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=196504

 

One big difference is that my trim at least was acting correctly up until 4 or 5 days ago and I have not experienced the Reversed Up Trim/Down Trim issues that you have ... but I might as well have. At least it would be doing something.

 

Please, if you find a solution can you relay it to me in my thread and I will do the same for you IF I get a solution.

Thanks in Advance

[Redglyph]

The weird trim behaviour was experienced by a few people from what I saw, but only when the FFB of the SPECIAL settings page was ON.

 

I'm surprised you got an answer from Polychop, I never had much help there ;)

 

 

Ah, just worth checking: the same settings are set by default to all the devices, so you may find the trim settings mapped to non-existing controls of the rudder pedals and so on. So verify that there are no ghost mappings or conflicts that could mess up with the trim. I don't really believe that could be the case but it's a quick check.

Edited November 29, 2017 by Redglyph

[SnowTiger]

Hi Redglyph.

Ya I wish it was that easy. I learned a long time ago that it's best to wipe all system default settings and start customizing from scratch.

That said, I have been flying the Gazelle since it was released. My Hotas has been set up since then with few minor changes.

So what's weirding me out the most is the fact that I have changed Nothing. Everything is exactly as it was (for example Last Week) but all of a sudden my Trim is just not working.

 

I did check FF to see if the update might have Checked that box ... but Nope. That would have been too easy. I rarely get away that easily !

 

BTW - While the Trim in the P-51 and the F-5E3 (and other DCS Aircraft I have) works a bit differently than in the Gazelle, I use the exact same Trim Hat in all of them.

The Trim continues to work as it should in at least the 2 above-mentioned aircraft (checked yesterday). It is only in the Gazelle where I am finding this ISSUE all of a sudden (since Saturday ?). And as also mentioned, all the functions appear to work (between Hotas and In-Cockpit) it is only the Affects of Trim that are no longer working AND this adversely affects my Altitude Hold (i.e. It no longer works as it did and should).

PS> While Polychop replied, there is no solution yet.

I'm just wondering if there aren't some other Files I can send them to have them checked out.

[Redglyph]

You could try to replay the mission track in this post: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3295251&postcount=37

 

If that's something other than your control mappings, for ex. a problem in the flight model because of a file or an option, it should not replay correctly. If that's only a faulty mapping, defect controller or driver issue, you should get the same results (being a Gazelle which takes off then flies level for a short while). As I said in that post, I tried to simply replay the track with the wrong options, and the behaviour is wrong, because it's based on all the options and the actual flight model.

 

Hope it helps a bit :)

[SnowTiger]

I will try the Track File as you suggested but I don't see how that is going to help.

 

This issue started for me Last Saturday. Prior to that I have been doing things the same way since the Gaz was released. I have Changed NOTHING.

It all worked good prior to last week. And even now, the Controls Indicator and DCS Options/Controls and the Trim/Cockpit Stick Positions ALL work or appear to be working as they should. BUT the TRIM DOES NOT WORK.

 

On the other hand, I have a mission (for training only) in which I have all 3 Gazelles with different loadout configurations (i.e. No Weapons, some, 2 or 4 Hot3s etc).

If the M model has No Weapons the Trim works fine. With weapons, it's sluggish but I expect that .. but it still works.

Then I jump into an Empty L or Mistral and then NOTHING. Trim actuates but does nothing.

 

BTW I use the Same Trim Hat in other aircraft. It works perfectly there too.

Again .. and for the last time ... Everything Appears to work correctly in that the Trim Controls work .. the TRIM Itself Does NOT work. I don't know how else to explain it.

I have spelled it 3 ways 5 times.

[Redglyph]

Again .. and for the last time ... Everything Appears to work correctly in that the Trim Controls work .. the TRIM Itself Does NOT work. I don't know how else to explain it.

I have spelled it 3 ways 5 times.

 

Well then, why did you post here saying you've got a similar problem? I'm not forcing you, just trying to help, but do as you wish.

[SnowTiger]

I apologize Redglyph.

The whole thing is frustrating me because it makes no sense to me.

I have literally checked everything I can think of checking and anything anyone else has mentioned. Nothing is noticeably different from before in settings etc.

 

I didn't mean to chew your ass. To be honest, I was hoping Polychop would have a suggestion for us or would like to see our sys files or something.

So again, I apologize. And I will still check your Track.

[Redglyph]

No problem SnowTiger, I understand how it is :)

 

The track is a bit desperate and probably won't help much, just to reduce the possibilities of what went wrong and from what you said, it could be either an update bug or a config that went south after the update (or still other things perhaps). That last one shouldn't happen, it's weird, but something had to happen at some point... I've had those bad configs once or twice but different.

EDIT: yep, forget the track. It's 2.1.1, doesn't use the alt hold, and I see the same problem as you (I think) in 1.5.8 anyway. Let's see in the other thread.

 

I see you had posted one as well in the other thread, I'll have a look, this makes more sense because I probably haven't used the trim much in my track.

Yeah, Polychop hasn't come back on this problem yet, you could send borchi_2b a PM to ask whether they had a chance to talk about that.

 

Or you could also revert to before the update you suspect. I've done that in the past and had no problem, check this page for the versions, and the instructions if you scroll up a bit. That'd be the more definite, but it could take a while to download stuff.

Edited December 3, 2017 by Redglyph

[SnowTiger]

Thanks for the link. I just might try that out.

Otherwise I might just dump the Open Beta and install the Full Version which I have yet to do.

 

I could always take another 6 months off with hopes things will be better then but it didn't seem to make any difference this summer !! lol

[Redglyph]

If you can find a version which has everything you need working correctly... ;)

 

Well, at least the FM seems more convincing now, so it would be hard to go back :/ Let's hope it's a quick fix.

[FragBum]

For what it's worth I am still having issues with straight and level flight although I don't use trim what should be fine adjustments to attitude seem slow to effect and when they do they seem to over react. There also seems to be the same randomness you need to correct for in straight and level flight that you get when hovering just dives off left or right, nose down or nose up. It's just weird random behaviour. And no I just don't have FFB enabled I wish it were that simple.

 

Oddly enough when I throw the Gazelle around it seems stable and well kinda like it should!

 

I'm on a mission to upgrade controls but this was never a problem prior to some upgrades including DCS, Gazelle, Windows and Rift and isn't with Mi8 and Huey also I am not nocking the Gazelle as such I'm just experiencing some issues which I am sure I will sort out.

 

@Redglyph I think this is why you didn't see any issue with the file I posted for me it was to use your expression "trying to kill me" :thumbup:

[Redglyph]

Gazelles are unpredictable and very dangerous animals :D

[SnowTiger]

@Redglyph and FragBum

 

Have you guys found a solution for your Trim issues ?

Do the issues (or Did the issues) exist in DCS 1.5 o.b. and DCS 2.2 o.a. either map ?

 

I was so happy to get my problem resolved and back to "normal" !

My issue simply resolved by now using Mag Break panel switch which I never had to use before.

[Redglyph]

I never got any reply from Polychop on that strange behaviour (nor on the other problems for that matter), it seems they're not interested. I haven't tried anymore, to be honest.

 

Thanks for asking anyway :) Yeah, I saw that, glad your problem was fixed and you could fly the Gazelle normally again!

[SnowTiger]

I don't know why I didn't ask this earlier but I'm curious Which HOTAS are you using and on which version of DCS (i.e. Causus or NTTR) do you usually fly (where the problem is encountered) ?

 

I hate to see you not be able to have some fun too. So I'm happy to do more research to see if we can't get you bobbin' 'n weavin' !

[Redglyph]

Thrustmaster, further details in my signature. I'm using both the beta and the alpha, last time I checked (not so long ago), it was the same behaviour in both branches. Perhaps it's the real behaviour, who knows?

 

It's not blocking at all, the Gazelle is pretty fun to fly and I can live with the weird "slow before accelerate" part since I'm not using that mode that often :)

 

It's just a bit frustrating when one takes the time to report issues to help with the beta/alpha, and not seeing any hint that the devs have registered the problem. That's what is bugging me the most in DCS, I don't mind if it takes 4 months to fix, it's a beta, but posting PR's for nothing is both a waste of time and a problem which is most probably not known to them.

 

I guess I haven't understood the logic of how it should be properly reported ;)

[SnowTiger]

I hear you friend.