Kula66 Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 Just reading the 'Master_FSG' for the AV-8B VMAT-203 and on page AA 16-8 it says: 'Name: Stadiametric Range Estimation Purpose: Determine the range of the target based on the size of the target relative to either the AIM-9 boresight SHPI or the long / short range gun sight. Description of Procedures: 1. In the AV-8B Night Attack variant,the ability to recognize a weapon engagement zone (WEZ) or adversary range without a radar lock is dependent upon the pilot’s ability to use stadiametric range estimation. 2. To determine the target’s range utilizing the gun sights,review the“Combat Gunnery” Lesson and the AV-8B NATIP for LCOS long and short range sight size.' Does this suggest that the AV-8B NA has a LCOS gun sight rather than just a fixed pipper??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveRindner Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 The pipper is not fixed. For either AA Guns mode. It dances small amount on HUD. Probably meant for WVR close combat of fighters with 10-12 meter wingspan within 1500 feet (about 450 meters) for Mig-29 sized adversary. But it is no EEGS gun funnel, thats fa'sure. I am not very good with AA guns in AV-8B. If SU-25 , when large pipper in centered on it, and Froggy's wing span is larger , in HUD, then pipper, I fire. Most rounds miss. A nice 1/2 second 25mm burst should perform in-flight disassembly of SU-25, but most rounds miss. What is infuriating is seeing tracers slide nicely in the trough where wing and fuselage meet, as seen from HUD,and not a single round connects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kula66 Posted July 22, 2018 Author Share Posted July 22, 2018 (edited) I've done a fair amount of guns A2A in the harrier and love it ... the gun is very effective and you have a fair amount of ammo to play with, but the sight is minimal ... never noticed it dancing around; does it move at all? Does it calculate lead as implied by 'LCOS' or does para 2 apply to the radar equipped version and is not linked to para 1??? Edit: So after trying it, the pipper moves a tiny amount ... not really a LCOS! Edited July 22, 2018 by Kula66 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveRindner Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 Well, AV-8B does not have an active sensor , that can range an AA target. So it's all eye and feel, and Kentucky Windage. LCOS in F-15C, SU-27/33/J-11A provide pipper when target is radar locked. SU and J have fairly accurate EEGS gun funnel, for WVR gun fight without radar. A-10C has a fantastic EEGS funnel implementation, which I thought would be standard on all Gen 4 US types. LCOS that I am familiar with from days Falcon4 and Jane's F-15E is a 'snake' with range markers from 100 meters to 1800 meters. Or feet in 500 foot increments. I don't rightly recall. But the best passive sight is EEGS funnel in F-16 Viper. WHISH AV-8B had it. I have Mirage module , but have not yet trained myself on it sufficiently. Perhaps TPOD has an AA mode , as in A-10C, which can lase AA tgt for better guns firing solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kula66 Posted July 23, 2018 Author Share Posted July 23, 2018 I'm just surprised that, even without radar, the NAs don't all have a funnel sight ... and the text seems to suggest they might. It is after all a fairly sophisticated HUD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveRindner Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 Well it is a commercial flight sim for entertainment and enthusiasts. RAZBAM has to implement it. A team has to programme it. Assuming that RAZBAM's AG gun's ballistic algorithm is solid, which it appears to be, and AA projectile path computation is solid, which it appears to be, funnel should be not be overly difficult. But it took RW Einsteins at GE 15 some years to develop a funnel for M61A1 on F16 . It still gets updated based on real world reports, and better CFD tools, and new ammunition. I am not a software engineer, but I do know that this stuff is sophisticated. From my artillery school days, the basic math is called Closed Loop Form Fitting Ballistic Algorithm. Model starts with round in a vacuum, with known muzzle velocity + platform air speed and directon vector, under Earth std gravity of 9.98 m/s^2, then drag is added using Standard Atmospheric Model (air density only, no winds, with 29.90 In-hPa), then mix in randomness to simulate mil deviation from tables published by weapon developer, and test firings of the weapon itself to gauge barrel condition, and some models implement Earth gravitational deviation. The ballistic algorithm then computes projectile trajectory, and reports that at specified rate to sim engine. The sim engine takes that trajectory and compares it to trajectory of target. If the two meet in time+space within tolerances, the sim engine calls the damage model, which computes hits, if any. Without radar or laser lock, the fire control computer has no way to judge distance, so it has to have an assumed target size measured in meters of the wingspan. Provided by pilot in RW , player in sim. Standard is 10-15 meter . 10 meters for F-16 (9.7 m actual), 10 meters for Mig-29, 12 meters for F-15, 14.5 meters for SU-27/30. The HUD funnel symbology is adjusted to desired wingspan. During combat, assuming pure or slight lead pursuit from 1500 feet (450 meter) on target's 8-4 aspect maneuver own ship as place wingtips to touch funnel sides, as seen through HUD, that means you have a good firing solution. Hold steady and press the trigger without jerking the a/c nose. So that is basics of using EEGS sight. It is sophisticated to develop, but relatively easy to use in a fast turning fight, where a snapshot with a gun is all you may get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kula66 Posted July 23, 2018 Author Share Posted July 23, 2018 That's great Dave, but the question is, does the NA have a better sight in RL than just a near-fixed cross? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveRindner Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 Thats actually hilarious. My response that it, when reading from POV of another. I feel a little foolish. Well, only a little. In truth I dunno. However I think it does. 'Plus' variant was given F/A-18 radar for AIM-120 carry, to improve Harrier's AirAir capability. I imagine Plus having same fire control symbology as F/A-18 and F-16. For our N/A variant I dunno, but intend find out. I think, likely it does. Wether or not it is on RAZBAM's todo list is another matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kula66 Posted July 23, 2018 Author Share Posted July 23, 2018 I've search for images on Google, but there are few showing A2A and its difficult to tell if its an NA or Plus. Definitely a fair few similarities between the FA/18 and AV-8B in how systems work ... makes a lot of sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChickenSim Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 The AV-8B NA does have an LCOS sight but not a gun funnel. The LCOS sight is derived from ownship INS at either a long (2,400 feet) or short (1,200 feet) target range, selectable with the cage/uncage switch. "It is also true that we parted ways with Chicken after some disagreements." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kula66 Posted July 24, 2018 Author Share Posted July 24, 2018 (edited) So, why, if i'm in a hard turn, doesn't the sight move down the HUD a significant amount? As it is, it barely moves ... it doesn't seem to compute any 'lead' at all! Edited July 24, 2018 by Kula66 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChickenSim Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 LCOS may not be implemented in DCS yet. I'm just saying to expect a (little) more robust sight in the future. I know one of the current challenges with the gun is getting the alignment correct first, as it currently doesn't give the 2 degrees of depression it's supposed to due to a DCS-is with pylon stores. I imagine once this is fixed the rest will sort of come together. "It is also true that we parted ways with Chicken after some disagreements." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kula66 Posted July 24, 2018 Author Share Posted July 24, 2018 It would be good to get confirmation of whether it's WIP or not. Interesting - I'd seen the depression comment, but didn't see any mention of the value or reason. Seems fine in A2A (even without the LCOS sight), but in A2G, it's certainly a problem that it seems to be above your FPM ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveRindner Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 OK, I got back to teaching myself M2KC, and the gun sight for Mirage is LCOS, as I recall from F-16. A snake with graduation. Maybe not as good as EEGS funnel, but still great sight! Would love to see it in Harrier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveRindner Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 Once in AA GUNS press UNCAGE in guns mode, that toggles SHORT/LONG range of gunsight. The larger gunsight does travel, but nowhere near as LCOS in Mirage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kula66 Posted July 24, 2018 Author Share Posted July 24, 2018 Maybe this gun has a super flat trajectory out to 2400'?? ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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