Teriander Posted December 24, 2018 Posted December 24, 2018 When I lock onto a target, sometimes the box is a diamond, sometimes it's a box with only corners, and sometimes its a box. What are the three different meanings and how do I know when I've locked into a friendly target?
backspace340 Posted December 24, 2018 Posted December 24, 2018 Diamond is hostile, box is unknown/friendly, box with just corners means you've lost lock.
Teriander Posted December 24, 2018 Author Posted December 24, 2018 Diamond is hostile, box is unknown/friendly, box with just corners means you've lost lock. I'll have to look again, but I believe I've witnessed the diamond change to a Box on the same lock. Is that normal?
Lieuie Posted December 24, 2018 Posted December 24, 2018 I'll have to look again, but I believe I've witnessed the diamond change to a Box on the same lock. Is that normal? IFF is not complete yet so sometimes that will happen.
Py Posted December 24, 2018 Posted December 24, 2018 I'll have to look again, but I believe I've witnessed the diamond change to a Box on the same lock. Is that normal? Don't trust it! It's just a placeholder until real IFF is modelled, but for some reason it is unreliable as you saw. It can change in both directions, (and multiple times) including just after you launch at someone...
Sandman1330 Posted December 24, 2018 Posted December 24, 2018 Diamond is hostile, box is unknown/friendly, box with just corners means you've lost lock. More correctly, diamond is unknown, box is friendly. Diamond means the target did not return a proper IFF when interrogated. It could mean its enemy, or it could mean its a civilian aircraft without IFF equipment, or even a friendly with improper codes or the system turned off. Box means almost certainly friendly, as the correct code was returned, and these codes are closely guarded crypto (for mode 4/5 anyway). However, as DCS does not yet have a third coalition (neutral) and simplified IFF, one can infer that diamond is enemy. I think this will change in future. Ryzen 7 5800X3D / Asus Crosshair VI Hero X370 / Corsair H110i / Sapphire Nitro+ 6800XT / 32Gb G.Skill TridentZ 3200 / Samsung 980 Pro M.2 / Virpil Warbrd base + VFX and TM grips / Virpil CM3 Throttle / Saitek Pro Combat pedals / Reverb G2
backspace340 Posted December 25, 2018 Posted December 25, 2018 (edited) More correctly, diamond is unknown, box is friendly. Diamond means the target did not return a proper IFF when interrogated. It could mean its enemy, or it could mean its a civilian aircraft without IFF equipment, or even a friendly with improper codes or the system turned off. Box means almost certainly friendly, as the correct code was returned, and these codes are closely guarded crypto (for mode 4/5 anyway). However, as DCS does not yet have a third coalition (neutral) and simplified IFF, one can infer that diamond is enemy. I think this will change in future. First off - Merry Christmas! Sorry but that's incorrect, and someone chimes in with this incorrect understanding every time this comes up. I've explained why it's wrong before here: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=224966&page=2 If the DCS Hornet had IFF working as you describe we would just see a box with FRIEND underneath for a friendly after a positive response, and a box for unknown/ambiguous/no response/failed response. Diamond means hostile - it doesn't mean unknown. But DCS doesn't model IFF properly, it's a fudge, so we just have hostile and unknown and we're missing the friendly state/symbology entirely. A box does not mean a correct IFF return as you can see the Iraqi Mig-21 marked with a box on the video in that post - so your understanding is incorrect unless Iraq hacked the Mode 4 codes. It'll all make a lot more sense once the IFF/ HAFU symbols and logic are in - we should hopefully then get the HUD symbol we're missing, which is for a positive IFF return: a box with 'FRIEND' written underneath. You'll also then see that hostile track files have a diamond, unknown/ambiguous have a box and friendlies have the box with 'FRIEND' underneath. Edited December 25, 2018 by backspace340
Sandman1330 Posted December 25, 2018 Posted December 25, 2018 First off - Merry Christmas! Sorry but that's incorrect, and someone chimes in with this incorrect understanding every time this comes up. I've explained why it's wrong before here: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=224966&page=2 If the DCS Hornet had IFF working as you describe we would just see a box with FRIEND underneath for a friendly after a positive response, and a box for unknown/ambiguous/no response/failed response. Diamond means hostile - it doesn't mean unknown. But DCS doesn't model IFF properly, it's a fudge, so we just have hostile and unknown and we're missing the friendly state/symbology entirely. A box does not mean a correct IFF return as you can see the Iraqi Mig-21 marked with a box on the video in that post - so your understanding is incorrect unless Iraq hacked the Mode 4 codes. It'll all make a lot more sense once the IFF/ HAFU symbols and logic are in - we should hopefully then get the HUD symbol we're missing, which is for a positive IFF return: a box with 'FRIEND' written underneath. You'll also then see that hostile track files have a diamond, unknown/ambiguous have a box and friendlies have the box with 'FRIEND' underneath. Merry Christmas to you as well! I see what you’re saying. The diamond is predicated on someone actually declaring the track hostile (whether the pilot using VID, NCTR or another means, or AWACS via datalink). It’s not automated via the IFF interrogation system. I think the great misunderstanding that I was trying to dispel is that IFF alone can tell you someone is hostile - that is of course incorrect, it can only identify friendly or unknown. But you know this :smilewink: Ryzen 7 5800X3D / Asus Crosshair VI Hero X370 / Corsair H110i / Sapphire Nitro+ 6800XT / 32Gb G.Skill TridentZ 3200 / Samsung 980 Pro M.2 / Virpil Warbrd base + VFX and TM grips / Virpil CM3 Throttle / Saitek Pro Combat pedals / Reverb G2
backspace340 Posted December 25, 2018 Posted December 25, 2018 Merry Christmas to you as well! I see what you’re saying. The diamond is predicated on someone actually declaring the track hostile (whether the pilot using VID, NCTR or another means, or AWACS via datalink). It’s not automated via the IFF interrogation system. I think the great misunderstanding that I was trying to dispel is that IFF alone can tell you someone is hostile - that is of course incorrect, it can only identify friendly or unknown. But you know this :smilewink: Yep it would've been a lot less confusing if ED had made the placeholder IFF just use friendly/unknown instead of unknown/hostile. Then it would have fit what everyone knows about how IFF works, as it is it's counter to how everyone expects it to work so it's a really common mistaken assumption that diamond means unknown.
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