acceleration and corner speed bleed.

[turkeydriver]

I would like to be able to accelerate when pointing down at the dirt in full afterburner during ACM at less than 2g but the jet says " NO, I don't weigh anything". I think our F-14B has a slight identity crisis. The F-14 also bleeds speed horrendously at corner speed at anything over 4g -despite clean and low weight. Yes we are Beta, I do not expect a fix NOW, just hoping this is getting the attention it needs.

[lunaticfringe]

What altitude are you seeing that "clean and low weight"?

[turkeydriver]

5k, 10k- anywhere but the deck

[Victory205]

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lol omg.

[VampireNZ]

Interesting - I am generally unload, point at the deck..woah there nelly I don't need to be going 500 knots...pull up onto bandit and break off wing :music_whistling:

[turkeydriver]

I get the trolling, really I do. I don't expect this to be an easy jet to fly. But I should drop like a rock- the sim does not do 0g acceleration well at all- that's not an F-14 thing- that's apparently a game engine thing. Try flying smart with 0g maneuvers when you can get it and snapping to the bandit instead of a constant 2-3g lag pursuit follow when you get position.....you'd expect some acceleration......but not really. This makes sense if I'm loaded with weapons and gas, and maybe at a spot where my DECUs are limiting the thrust so I don't hurt the motor function, but what is the F-14 known for...…?

She can dive and she can retain energy pretty decent- especially at low altitude and weight where you aren't ham fisting the controls.....I just don't see it.

game engine or F-14 FM, I need something affected a bit more by this strange force of by 9.2 meters/second^2.

 

-current truck driver

[turkeydriver]

Interesting - I am generally unload, point at the deck..woah there nelly I don't need to be going 500 knots...pull up onto bandit and break off wing :music_whistling:

 

Yeah that's not what Im talking about- we can all ham fist 12g and snap the wings. Go fight the MiG-29 and try to keep your energy with corner at low altitude and weight....also note your speed at the start of a dive and the end....now compare to a Harrier diving with vectored thrust as forward as it will go.....

If you can explain why ~54k lbs of thrust (less at low speed and high altitude) doesn't affect ~60k of weight the way it ought to Im all ears.

 

I'm no ace at all. Just give me a TACview file of you clean at angels 10 and angels 5 holding corner speed at 6.5g without bleeding off huge. If you can show me this, thread deleted.

[lunaticfringe]

Corner, 55,620 lbs, based on a 4x4 configuration in the charts (lightest drag profile available) at 5k is just on 6G sustained. 10k is a shade over 5. But you answer a bit of your own question: the F-14s maximum Ps is roughly M 0.2 to 0.25 higher, and as a byproduct of the sweep programming, you lose CL as you progress into the power.

 

You want to hold 6G, you need to be above M 0.8. But at that point you're surrendering your advantages.

[BlackLion213]

I'm no ace at all. Just give me a TACview file of you clean at angels 10 and angels 5 holding corner speed at 6.5g without bleeding off huge. If you can show me this, thread deleted.

 

Well you can't sustain 6.5G at corner velocity at 10K' as LunaticFringe said, but you should be able to at 5K'.

 

I attached a tacview file of me flying in circles....on purpose this time. ;)

 

Corner speed is roughly 350 KIAS and you should be able to hold 5 Gs clean (track starts at half internal fuel). Holding altitude and maintaining steady airspeed is tricky, but you can see that 5+ G is very doable sustained.

 

Down at 5K', 6.5-7G sustained is manageable at 320-335 KIAS (go to the end of the tacview file). Again, maintaining ideal airspeed in a level turn is tricky so speed and G oscillate a bit (especially with the ASI vibrating under buffet).

 

Also, the AOA listed in Tacview is wrong for some reason. All of these turns are 14-17 units (higher at lower altitudes) for sustained turn rate.

 

I suspect that you are overshooting sustained AOA since it takes a moment for the F-14 to settle into the turn. So players keep adding back stick and are rewarded with more pitch rate till the airspeed bleeds off. You should be targeting 14-17 units at all times unless intentionally trading energy for nose position. Even then, more than 22-24 is just wasting energy, pitch rate precipitously drops off above 25 units.

 

Hope this helps. The performance is definitely there if you fly to parameters.

 

Amusing that we've had a thread on the Tomcat way over-performing and under-performing in one week.....

 

-Nick

Tacview-20190406-213826-DCS.rar

[lunaticfringe]

Everything but speed and altitude in Tacview is interpolated, and it grabs raw degrees like DCS itself.

 

For turkeydriver, the absolute best thing to do with regards to the AoA rate is turn up the In-Cockpit volume, put the jet into burner at 10 or 15k, slide right onto 15 units, and look out of the canopy to the horizon. Then hunt for it. Relax the stick, return to 15 units. Pull extra, recover back to the sound. Use the pedals just below that sound for your roll, and everything through and above. Listen to the plane talk. And as Nick says- if you overshoot, you spoil the energy state.

 

On a full tank you can do that for about five minutes. Do it for ten to fifteen minutes until that sound is burned in your mind. Then go flying and see what changes.

[turkeydriver]

anything on dive acceleration or am I out to lunch as well? Thanks all for the responses.

[Victory205]

With full fuel the aircraft will be structurally limited to less than 5.5 G at a typical empty weight.

 

6.5 G is available at a gross of 50,000, resulting in a total lift of 325000 pounds. Divide your gross into that to obtain your max G assuming that you plan to observe the structural limits. It also shows the variation in performance based on weight.

 

It's interesting that the Ps charts don't show the G limits for the actual gross weight listed on the charts. They show the max G limit of 6.5 instead.

 

Buffet is a fantastic cue for fighting the aircraft, but it takes finesse to both learn and apply while under pressure.

 

Edit- for max acceleration, unload to .5 G. Don't go to zero, you'll run the engine feed tanks out of fuel. If you aren't accelerating, then you have too much G on the aircraft. Frankly, your numbers sound like you are in mil power or less. You are getting full AB in your Peterbuilt, yes?

Edited April 7, 2019 by Victory205

[HawkDCS]

With full fuel the aircraft will be structurally limited to less than 5.5 G at a typical empty weight.

 

6.5 G is available at a gross of 50,000, resulting in a total lift of 325000 pounds. Divide your gross into that to obtain your max G assuming that you plan to observe the structural limits. It also shows the variation in performance based on weight.

 

It's interesting that the Ps charts don't show the G limits for the actual gross weight listed on the charts. They show the max G limit of 6.5 instead.

 

Buffet is a fantastic cue for fighting the aircraft, but it takes finesse to both learn and apply while under pressure.

 

Edit- for max acceleration, unload to .5 G. Don't go to zero, you'll run the engine feed tanks out of fuel. If you aren't accelerating, then you have too much G on the aircraft. Frankly, your numbers sound like you are in mil power or less. You are getting full AB in your Peterbuilt, yes?

 

Did the 14 actually buffet as much as it does in sim in real world? Is it over done to help with AOA judgment? Or was it that rough of a ride?

[turkeydriver]

Yep I made a mistake regarding corner and g- I should have left it to bleed and acceleration- but that's just another way of discussing the same things. If you guys buy the acceleration and energy retention, very well. I was hoping to drop like a rock to build it back up.

[Victory205]

Did the 14 actually buffet as much as it does in sim in real world? Is it over done to help with AOA judgment? Or was it that rough of a ride?

 

Yes. The tails would waggle due to the buffet from the intake vortices. It buffets at one G in the landing config, all of which is detailed in my Handling Paper.

 

I get the sense that the other modules under represent buffet cues. Every tactical jet that I flew buffeted to different degrees, but the Tomcat gave nuance feedback as the buffet changed with AOA perceptibly. I haven't flown the DCS F18 in awhile, but if you watch some of the Blue Angels videos during rendezvous, you'll see what I mean.

 

Another technique in the sim for establishing .5 G for an unload is to get a sense of how fast the nose moves at that G for your typical bug out airspeed range. You can't feel light in your seat, but you can notice the slow pitch rate associated with it. It will vary obviously with bank angle and velocity.

[HawkDCS]

Yes. The tails would waggle due to the buffet from the intake vortices. It buffets at one G in the landing config, all of which is detailed in my Handling Paper.

 

I get the sense that the other modules under represent buffet cues. Every tactical jet that I flew buffeted to different degrees, but the Tomcat gave nuance feedback as the buffet changed with AOA perceptibly. I haven't flown the DCS F18 in awhile, but if you watch some of the Blue Angels videos during rendezvous, you'll see what I mean.

 

Another technique in the sim for establishing .5 G for an unload is to get a sense of how fast the nose moves at that G for your typical bug out airspeed range. You can't feel light in your seat, but you can notice the slow pitch rate associated with it. It will vary obviously with bank angle and velocity.

 

Thanks for reply Victory! :)

[lunaticfringe]

It's interesting that the Ps charts don't show the G limits for the actual gross weight listed on the charts. They show the max G limit of 6.5 instead.

 

I'd suppose the Ps loss values would be horrific, but perhaps not enough to scare people away from the monster turn rate DpS numbers. I then wonder what the original, reputed, CL-based CADC sweep program would have looked like on that score rather than the Ps one.

 

To be fair though, after the first week of messing around with the F-14B module in test, I can't honestly say that I've intentionally looked at the G gauge, and even the former was with CTRL-Y just to (poorly) run performance book profiles to get a feel for the thing. The audible/visual feedback is clear- I've never understood why some felt it wasn't enough. And if it indeed gave enough cues in that fashion, one can see why the accelerometer could be moved for the ALR upgrade.

[Victory205]

Well, your arse comes with a built in G meter that is calibrated very quickly.

[BlackLion213]

Yep I made a mistake regarding corner and g- I should have left it to bleed and acceleration- but that's just another way of discussing the same things. If you guys buy the acceleration and energy retention, very well. I was hoping to drop like a rock to build it back up.

 

I do buy the unloaded acceleration, but it takes a moment to drop the AOA and see the energy build. It takes at least a second to start building up steam, though it seems to have better unloaded acceleration than the F-15C (to me at least).

 

The connecting feature of the F-14 is that direction changes are subject to more inertia than other fighters. It’s not just about mass (according to a NASA aero paper), but it’s easy to over control the aircraft.

 

With some practice all these issues will sort out and flying the Tomcat will feel very different.

 

-Nick