MW 50 or GM-1

[Bremspropeller]

It is. The translation is not correct. See above.

"Mit Anlauf der vollständigen TS/TH Triebwerke wird die bisherige Serienbezeichnung Fw 190A-8 geändert und erhält die Bezeichnung Fw 190A-9."

With the beginning of serial production of complete TS/TH engines [TH never was built in serial production], the designation will be changed from A-8 into A-9.

This is a remark to the fact that the TU motor was a combination of D and TH components, which the TS wasn't. "Anlauf" designates the beginning of serial production. There's no reference of an engine swap at all. "Anbau" / "Einbau" would make sense in that regard, but not "Anlauf".

By the time of the report, factory-built A-9s were already in service. Production started in September '44 (Fw @ Cottbus, mostly R11s). The A-9 designation for TS powered aircraft was already in place by August.

Mimetall at Erfurt supposedly built A-9s starting in August 44 (!), which does not make sense and they were most probably a mix-up. Other sources (acc Rodeike) identify those as A-8s. Externally, the A-8 and A-9 would look very similar, depending on the motor (e.g. TU in the A-8) and canopies fitted.

Edited Sunday at 06:19 PM by Bremspropeller

[Crumpp]

44 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

Except that it never mentions motor-swaps.

And how is an FW-190A8 going to get a TS engine and become an FW-190A9???

[Bremspropeller]

1 minute ago, Crumpp said:

And how is an FW-190A8 going to get a TS engine and become an FW-190A9???

Strawman.

We're here 'cause you're claiming an A-8 with a TS motor was initially designated R4, which so far you've failed to prove.

[Crumpp]

10 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

With the beginning of serial production of complete TS/TH engines [TH never was built in serial production], the designation will be changed from A-8 into A-9.

Has nothing to do with TU engines or the fact a hybrid motor was built.  It simply states if an FW-190A8 gets a BMW801S engine, it becomes an FW-190A9.

The production line making engines is completely seperate and not linked to any airframe.  It just says once they start making engines, if one goes on an FW190A8 then that airplane is going to be called an FW-190A9.

It does not say a damn thing about who installs the engine.

That eliminates the R4 designation.

http://fw190.hobbyvista.com/variants.htm

 

[Crumpp]

BTW, 

Your whole hoopla about the two access panels being required is exactly why FW-190A8 production was delayed.  They installed those access panels before pushing the type to the Luftwaffe.  That is why deliveries took so long from production in the first FW-190A8's.

[Bremspropeller]

20 minutes ago, Crumpp said:

Your whole hoopla about the two access panels being required is exactly why FW-190A8 production was delayed.  They installed those access panels before pushing the type to the Luftwaffe.  That is why deliveries took so long from production in the first FW-190A8's.

That explains why the first known A-8 losses on the front in the west were a full four days after the date of the report.

Edited Sunday at 07:08 PM by Bremspropeller

[Crumpp]

1 hour ago, Bremspropeller said:

That explains why the first known A-8 losses on the front in the west were a full four days after the date of the report.

What report are you talking about.

I am referring to the production dates of the FW190A8 and when they show up at the Geschwaders.

For example, FW-190A6 production was planned for June 1943.  FW190A6 show up in the Geswaders in July 1943. Same with EVERY Anton Variant after the FW-190A3 except the FW-190A8.

The FW190A8 production began in February 1944.  There is a two month lag before the first ones start showing up in the Geschwaders.  A month longer than any previous type.

Edited Sunday at 08:34 PM by Crumpp

[Bremspropeller]

The one where it was determined that there's gonna be a need of two additional access doors for GM1 installation (as well as a reconfiguration of the oxy-bottles, which you seem to not care about), which you claim were in all 190A-8s and which halted delivery for two months.

Report dated 4.4.44, first loss 8.4.44

3 hours ago, Crumpp said:

That eliminates the R4 designation.

http://fw190.hobbyvista.com/variants.htm

R4: "Entered service 12.44" - so after which the designation was supposedly dropped?

Edited Sunday at 09:36 PM by Bremspropeller

[Crumpp]

37 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

The one where it was determined that there's gonna be a need of two additional access doors (and a reconfigureation of the oxy-bottles), which you claim were in all 190A-8s and which halted delivery for two months.

 

And production started in February 1944....

Again, for every other FW-190A that would mean first deliveries would have been in MARCH.  They were not.

Factually All FW-190A8's did have two additional access doors or are you still claiming that was just impossible too?  One of them is even labeled for GM-1 in the description found in the Flugzueg Handbuch, lol.  You can look at any FW-190A8 and see both access doors.

37 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

R4: "Entered service 12.44" - so after which the designation was supposedly dropped?

Find a single FW-190A8/R4 in service anywhere or anything that contradicts Technical Description Nr 284 in regards to re-engining a FW-190A8 with a TS engine.

 

 

Edited Sunday at 10:08 PM by Crumpp

[Crumpp]

4 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

By the time of the report, factory-built A-9s were already in service. Production started in September '44 (Fw @ Cottbus, mostly R11s). The A-9 designation for TS powered aircraft was already in place by August.

And?  What does that have to do with the FW-190A8 variant?  Every FW-190A9 had a TS engine from the "production line" at BMW. 

FW-190A8's did not come with BMW801S engines at all.

If you put an BMW801S engine on your FW-190A8, Focke Wulf says you call it an FW-190A9.  

It's a simple concept.

[Bremspropeller]

1 hour ago, Crumpp said:

Again, for every other FW-190A that would mean first deliveries would have been in MARCH.  They were not.

Factually All FW-190A8's did have two additional access doors.  One of them is even labeled for GM-1, lol.  You can look at any FW-190A8 and see both access doors.

So on 4 April 44, reps from Fw and BMW meet at AGO in Oschersleben, determining the neccessity of the changes to the airframe for GM1 installation to be implemented after contract assignment. Some minor internal fixture stuff, tank integration, the neccessity of two additional acces doors and a reworked oxygen-bottle setup (similar to the one "on the Ta 152"). They also agree on getting the required and missing data by 6 April 44 and they agree on getting notice by AGO about the go-ahead on serial production on 8 April 44.

Incidentally, on 8 April 44, there's three losses of A-8s, which mark the first known losses (acc Rodeike):

2./JG 1 - WNr. 170 044 - Ofw Anton-Rudolf Pfiffer takes the chute near Salzwedel, which by chance is only 100km from Oschersleben where AGO is about to decide whether to go ahead (or not) with GM1 system implementation into their A-8 production

1./JG 11 - WNr. 170 034 - Uffz. Herbert Nast KIA above Lüneburger Heide (a bit farther north than Salzwedel)

2./JG26 - WNr. 170 009 - Lt. Karl-Heinz Willius KIA near Kamperzeedijk (sounds dutch to me)

 

That's three Cottbus-built A-8s with access panels ("...those were in all A-8s...") that supposedly were only determined to be neccessary four days prior.

Fiction.

1 hour ago, Crumpp said:

Find a single FW-190A8/R4 in service anywhere or anything that contradicts Technical Description Nr 284 in regards to re-engining a FW-190A8 with a TS engine.

The R4 designation existed to denote other variants receiving a TS engine.

No, you claimed the R4 designation ceased with the re-naming to A-9 by the end of November iaw Baubeschreibung 284. Then you show a source about exactly that supposed R4 designation (A-8 with swapped TS motors), which allegedly started "into service" in December 44 - after the "renaming to A-9" in those circumstances was decided.

========================================

What we've established so far:

- no GM1 use in operations on 190A aircraft (or F/G for that matter)

- AGO was to build 200 airframes with full up GM1 equipment with the "Rüstsatz 4" designation (Fw 190A-8/R4), starting in April 44 - this never materialized for reasons not quite clear so far* - supposedly there were eleven R4 aircraft in 10./JG 11 by the end of 1944 which came out of several production lots from AGO WNrs, built beween August and October 1944

- Erhöhte Notleistung was introduced in July 44 on D motors, TU motors were built into new aircraft in June 44 with the same rating, TU motors slightly heavier 

- D and TU motors are interchangeable, TU motors had provisions (injector nozzles) for GM1 but lacked the piping and tank

- the 115l tank behind the pilot was standard and could be removed and exchanged for a 140l MW50 tank (115l ws also possible) or a 85l GM1 tank, this never happend in operations

- A-9 aircraft were earmarked for TS engines after the delay of the TH motors with production starting in "fall 1944" (Focke-Wulf Entwicklungsmitteilung 3 August 1944), TS engines can be installed on A-8s (e.g. in depot maintenance)

- TS engines into production airframes in September 44 at Cottbus (possibly with Mimetall Erfurt in August, but unlikely)

- Baubeschreibung 284 dated late November 44 mentions that production aircraft with TS motors are named A-9 (which was already clear in August), it does not state aircraft are to be renamed A-9 after the swap from a D or TU motor to a TS motor. 

- the R4 designation for TS engines in the 190A-8 cannot be proven (or disproven for that matter) - the existence of those "R4" aircraft could match with R4s (eleven!) at 10./JG 11, incidentally built by AGO...or not

 

*Most likely the bombing attacks onto the factory from 11 April 44 which caused severe damage and other, following attacks in late May and in June were the reason why AGO wouldn't go ahead.

Edited Sunday at 11:03 PM by Bremspropeller

[Crumpp]

8 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

Some (eleven known in total acc. Rodeike) R4s supposedly at 10./JG11 in winter 44/45

10/JG11 was disbanded in June 1944.

https://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/b10jg11.html

 

It is impossible for them to have received FW-190A8/R4's as the unit did not exist.  Rodieke does not list his source for this information but he definitely notes the discrepancy and even produced the same documents I have shown you that approved GM-1 in July 44.

It could be a typo as Focke Wulf and RLM were testing GM-1 in the FW-190A in late 1943 beginning of 1944.  The edition of the installation manual I have is March 1944.   The Endurance Testing of GM-1 in the BMW801D2 is from November of 1943.  It passed with flying colors at 150gr/sec. 

 

That installation at 150gr/sec was probably tested in December 1944 by 10/JG11 and it would have been in an FW-190A5/6/7.  BMW changed the injection rate to 80gr/sec which would have enacted another series of testing and that injection rate was specifically noted as approved in July 1944.

The FW-190A8 was conceived with the installation of GM-1 or a 115 liter Auxiliary tank.  It was designed that way. 

Why you think BMW clarifying as the ENGINE builder that they will only handle the ENGINE building part of providing GM-1 and leave the AIRFRAME building portion up the AIRFRAME builder is puzzling.

What is a definite fact is 10/JG11 did not exist at the turn of the year 44/45 for them to receive a variant whose designation was defunked a year before and clarified in Technical Order Nr234.

 

 

Edited Monday at 12:20 AM by Crumpp

[Crumpp]

5 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

This is a remark to the fact that the TU motor was a combination of D and TH components, which the TS wasn't. "Anlauf" designates the beginning of serial production. There's no reference of an engine swap at all. "Anbau" / "Einbau" would make sense in that regard, but not "Anlauf".

By the time of the report, factory-built A-9s were already in service. Production started in September '44 (Fw @ Cottbus, mostly R11s). The A-9 designation for TS powered aircraft was already in place by August.

 

You do realize the entire Technical Description Nr234 is the Technical Description of the FW190A8.

It is right there at the top...Jadgflugzeug FW-190 A-8. 

It is not talking about anything that pertains to anything else except the FW-190A8.  The subject of the entire document is the Technical Description of the FW-190A8.

It very clearly states that if an FW-190A8 receives a BMW 801D2 engine or a BMW801Q/TU engine the aircraft remains an FW-190A8.  If you put a BMW801S engine on your FW-190A8 then it becomes an FW-190A9.

 

 

[Crumpp]

1 hour ago, Bremspropeller said:

So on 4 April 44, reps from Fw and BMW meet at AGO in Oschersleben, determining the neccessity of the changes to the airframe for GM1 installation to be implemented after contract assignment. Some minor internal fixture stuff, tank integration, the neccessity of two additional acces doors and a reworked oxygen-bottle setup (similar to the one "on the Ta 152"). They also agree on getting the required and missing data by 6 April 44 and they agree on getting notice by AGO about the go-ahead on serial production on 8 April 44.

Incidentally, on 8 April 44, there's three losses of A-8s, which mark the first known losses (acc Rodeike):

2./JG 1 - WNr. 170 044 - Ofw Anton-Rudolf Pfiffer takes the chute near Salzwedel, which by chance is only 100km from Oschersleben where AGO is about to decide whether to go ahead (or not) with GM1 system implementation into their A-8 production

1./JG 11 - WNr. 170 034 - Uffz. Herbert Nast KIA above Lüneburger Heide (a bit farther north than Salzwedel)

2./JG26 - WNr. 170 009 - Lt. Karl-Heinz Willius KIA near Kamperzeedijk (sounds dutch to me)

150gr/sec vs 80gr/sec....

 

Can you spot the difference?????

[Crumpp]

On 7/27/2025 at 6:37 PM, Bremspropeller said:

What we've established so far:

Isn't completely agreed upon.

On 7/27/2025 at 6:37 PM, Bremspropeller said:

no GM1 use in operations on 190A aircraft (or F/G for that matter)

None that I am aware of outside anecdotal and Operational Testing.  Approval and use are two different things.  Factually, the Luftwaffe was concerned about the possibility of B-29's appearing over Europe.  150gr/sec injection rate would have been very useful for countering that possibility.  It wasn't very useful against the altitude bands the other allied bombers flew at as its operational altitude band was above them.

On 7/27/2025 at 6:37 PM, Bremspropeller said:

- AGO was to build 200 airframes with full up GM1 equipment with the "Rüstsatz 4" designation (Fw 190A-8/R4), starting in April 44 - this never materialized for reasons not quite clear so far* - supposedly there were eleven R4 aircraft in 10./JG 11 by the end of 1944 which came out of several production lots from AGO WNrs, built beween August and October 1944

It would make sense only if Rodieke's excerpt was a typo.  Then it would fit perfectly.  In late 1943, early 1944 GM-1 at 150gr/sec was tested.  In that time period, Focke Wulf had already modified FW-190A5 airframes to prototype the FW-190A8 and were tooled up for production of the FW-190A8.  Eleven aircraft would have been feasible and the FW-190A8/R4 designation would have been applicable in the timeframe.  10/JG11 was the Luftwaffe Operational Test Squadron at that time as well.

Otherwise, 10/JG11 did not exist at the end of 1944 and neither did the R4 designation when talking about an FW-190A8 after the publication of Technical Description Nr 284:  Fighter Aircraft FW-190A8.

The R4 designation was retired for the FW-190A8.  R4 denotes the installation of an BMW801S motor which like the BMW801Q/TU engine was equipped for GM-1 right off the production line.  It was built to use GM-1, came from the factory set up to use GM-1, and would not be a TS/TU engine without being set up, approved, and able to use GM-1.  You keep thinking R4 means "GM-1", it does not.  R4 means an BMW801S engine.  That engine is inherently set up for GM-1.  Once more, the Luftwaffe Depot maintenance had a large supply of older airframes to recycle and re-engine when a S motor was available.  In testing of the BMW801S engine, the FW-190A5 airframe that the engine was mounted upon was called an FW-190A5/R4.  That designation would have carried over as older airframes were re-engined.

On 7/27/2025 at 6:37 PM, Bremspropeller said:

- Erhöhte Notleistung was introduced in July 44 on D motors, TU motors were built into new aircraft in June 44 with the same rating, TU motors slightly heavier 

Yes.  However any BMW801Q/TU engine that arrived in June would have had operational Erhohte Notleistung.  The fact a separate Technical Order was published in the Form of "Focke Wulf Technical Modification Nr133" is solid proof of instructions being published to equip any FW-190A8 that did not come from the factory with Erhohte Notleistung.  Technical Description Nr. 284 reads "Commencing in July, ALL FW-190A8 will be fitted with Erhohte Notleistung."  It says nothing about "new production" but notes the entire fleet will be completely upgraded.  It does not block out WerkNummers or designation only certain variants.  It says ALL.

 

On 7/27/2025 at 6:37 PM, Bremspropeller said:

- D and TU motors are interchangeable, TU motors had provisions (injector nozzles) for GM1 but lacked the piping and tank

Yes.  BMW801S motors are also a possibility to be installed on an FW-190A8.  It just changes the designation. 

The airframe modifications for GM-1 and the tank are built into every FW-190A8 as originally designed, delivered, and flown by the Luftwaffe.  There is no mysterious lack of ability to use the system due to engineering on the part of the airframe or the engine.  It was approved and existed as a capability.

80gr/sec test flights:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/Fw_190_V-45_7347_FB_Nr1.pdf

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/Fw_190_7347_Nr2.pdf

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/Fw_190_7347_Nr3.pdf

It is interesting to note that the entire test regiment amounts to ~20 hours of flight time.  For Flight Reports Number 2 and 3, they used an aircraft with a brand spanking new motor.  That aircraft flew the remainder of the test regiment amounting to 8.8 hours of flight time.  They note the high cylinder head temperatures at +20 Cina (Hot Summer Temperatures).  That +20 is the ISA deviation and that is some very hot weather.  There is no cause for concern as high cylinder head temperatures are normal on a brand new engine in any aircraft.  Most aircraft engine manufacturers recommend at least 25 hours of flight time for break in.  Most of that should be spent at max power with varying the throttle between 65%-75% every 15 minutes to prevent glazing.  It can take that long for the rings to seat.  You will know the rings seat when the Cylinder head temperatures come down to normal and stabilize.

That is why they went ahead and approved it.

So GM-1 was Approved in July 44 at 80gr/sec.

On 7/27/2025 at 6:37 PM, Bremspropeller said:

- the 115l tank behind the pilot was standard and could be removed and exchanged for a 140l MW50 tank (115l ws also possible) or a 85l GM1 tank, this never happend in operations

The 115 liter tank was standard as delivered.  The 85 liter GM-1 tanks also existed and in the supply system.

The set up was tested and production planned since December 1943.  The design changes are incorporated into the FW-190A8 as previously shown.

 

On 7/27/2025 at 6:37 PM, Bremspropeller said:

- A-9 aircraft were earmarked for TS engines after the delay of the TH motors with production starting in "fall 1944" (Focke-Wulf Entwicklungsmitteilung 3 August 1944), TS engines can be installed on A-8s (e.g. in depot maintenance)

- TS engines into production airframes in September 44 at Cottbus (possibly with Mimetall Erfurt in August, but unlikely)

- Baubeschreibung 284 dated late November 44 mentions that production aircraft with TS motors are named A-9 (which was already clear in August), it does not state aircraft are to be renamed A-9 after the swap from a D or TU motor to a TS motor. 

All answered by Technical Description Nr 284: Fighter Aircraft FW-190A8.

That document clarifies everything that is applicable to the FW-190A8.  It specifically address the installation of BMW801S motor on an FW-190A8 makes the aircraft an FW-190A9.

On 7/27/2025 at 6:37 PM, Bremspropeller said:

the R4 designation

By virtue of the instructions in Technical Description Nr 284:  Fighter Aircraft FW-190A8 specifically addressing BMW801S engines installed on an FW-190A8 it eliminates the R4 designation for the FW-190A8 specifically.

That makes sense too.  The FW-190A8 and FW190A9 have the exact same airframe with the no difference from the firewall back.  If you put a BMW801S engine on any other Anton, it is not the same airframe therefore the R4 designation makes sense to differentiate the significance of the powerplant. 

An R4 designation would be redundant and unnecessary on an FW-190A8 airframe.  

Edited yesterday at 01:43 AM by Crumpp

[Crumpp]

The 115 liter tank was removable.  It was also the first tank to be emptied by the fuel system.

Without a Centerline mounted drop tank:

The 115 tank and no gauges to monitor the fuel level in flight.  If there was fuel in it the system drew from the rear tank automatically.  The pilot would know the 115 liter rear aux tank was empty when he saw the rear main tank fuel level drop below 240liters (full fuel for that tank).

With a Centerline mounted drop tank:

The system would feed from 115 rear aux tank first as long as the manifold pressure was in cruise flight and below 1 ata.  In cruise settings, the 115liter aux tank would be used and then it would start using the fuel in the 300 liter Centerline Mounted drop tank automatically switching off additional boost pumps.  At power settings above cruise, it automatically switched on additional boost pumps to meet the demand of increased fuel requirements.  When the Centerline Mounted Drop Tank was empty it would be automatically switched to internal fuel logic.  The only indication the Centerline Mounted Drop tank was empty was when the fuel in the rear main tank dropped below 240 liters.  That means your 115 liter Auxiliary tank is emptied first.

When the fuel circuit is using the drop tank, fuel is fed from the rear main tank.  When the rear main tank contents drops below 240liters, fuel from the 300liter Centerline Drop Tank is fed to the rear main tank until it is topped off again to keep the internal main tanks full.

The fuel system is built around using the fuel in the 115 liter Aux tank first automatically.