Kula66 Posted November 17, 2004 Posted November 17, 2004 How 'wide' is the course to notch an opponents radar? If someone locks me, from 0degs, I turn to 90degs and I disappear from their radar - right? So if I turn 88deg will I still disappear? How much off true 90 do I have to be and still get filtered by their doppler radar? If I turn through the dopler notch angle, and a SARH missile is guiding on me, will I momentarily disappear, and the missile lose lock and miss, or when I come out of the 'notch' will the guiding radar reacquire and missile carry on tracking? Thanks, James
GGTharos Posted November 17, 2004 Posted November 17, 2004 I don't know how th enotch is modelled - the notch 'gate' is uspposedly based on speed, so the slower you go, the less you need to turn (at a slow enough speed, even 70-80 deg might make you vanish) but typically the speed is so great that you'll need to turn as close to 90deg as possible. As for re-acquisition, it has to be manually ... ie. if the person sees you show up again he can hit the lock butotn on your return and the missile will guide again. It's a good idea once you notch to try and reverse direction or some other interesting maneuver of the sort, so that even if you are locke donto again, that missile will have to make a very significant course correctiona nd possibly miss due to lack fo speed. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
Kula66 Posted November 17, 2004 Author Posted November 17, 2004 Thanks GGT. Do you have to consider the vertical plane? If I dive vertically, will that show? or do I have to maintain constant horizontal angle to my opponent as well? James
GGTharos Posted November 17, 2004 Posted November 17, 2004 The vertical plane works fine. THe only problem is, as I mentioned, your speed. I don't know if you know how vectors work, but the component of your velocity vector that you're interested in has to fall under the doppler gate. It's always a little tricky :) [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
Kula66 Posted November 17, 2004 Author Posted November 17, 2004 I guess you are trying to fly on a path described by a part of a sphere with its centre on the enemy fighter ... and at least with the major component of your velocity in that plane and the remaining component less than the gate. And the sphere is moving forward ... what sort of value is the doppler gate 10mph? 100mph? Any idea? Also, if I turn through the notch angle, say from straight toward the enemy to 95deg ... obviously passing through the notch angle momentarily, will this break lock? James
GGTharos Posted November 17, 2004 Posted November 17, 2004 That's the problem, I don't know :) It could be as much 50kts or as little as 10. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
SwingKid Posted November 17, 2004 Posted November 17, 2004 In real life, the original APG-63 was around 110 kts. The APG-70 and -63(v)1 reportedly have a GMTR knob to select 87, 63, or 45 knots, depending on the clutter environment. Sorry, not sure how this is modelled in Lock On - it's another of those details that evolves between patches. -SK
Kula66 Posted November 17, 2004 Author Posted November 17, 2004 Thanks Swingkid, now to do some trig to work out the notch angle!! James PS> Glad you liked the article ...
Octav Posted November 17, 2004 Posted November 17, 2004 Thanks Swingkid, now to do some trig to work out the notch angle!! James PS> Glad you liked the article ... Well, to have some practical numbers... At 1000 km/h closure speed, for a radar with a notch gate of 100 km/h, the beaming angle should be between 84 and 96 degrees. At 500 km/h closure speed, the angle could be between 78 and 102 degrees For a 200 km/h notch gate, the angles become: at 1000 km/h - 78 - 102 degrees at 500 km/h - 66 - 114 degrees Octav
GGTharos Posted November 17, 2004 Posted November 17, 2004 Yeah ... I'm not sure if this is accurately reflected in LOMAC ... [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
Octav Posted November 17, 2004 Posted November 17, 2004 Yeah ... I'm not sure if this is accurately reflected in LOMAC ... I've never had the chance to check this in lomac.... But most radars, once the've locked a target, switch to a different filtering method, that allows them to keep lock of a beaming target, especially if they are below the target's altitude - I'm glad they implemented that in lomac, although most radars, when loosing a locked target in the ground clutter, will most of the time start tracking the ground, instead of just loosing lock - that would be nice to model... Octav
Kula66 Posted November 22, 2004 Author Posted November 22, 2004 Ok, a follow-on question (since there are obviously some bright people out there) ... If my opponent is flying 010deg, I turn 90 off his course to 110deg ... and notch his radar ... I can't tell that I've notched him, I still get the same view on the RWR of him on my right at 90deg. If he now turns, say 20deg, I will reappear on his radar as my velocity component along his course is greater then the gate on his radar ... I still don't see any change on my RWR, he can now fire and I'm in trouble. The point is that notching his radar, makes me lose sight of him, he only has to make a small change to re-acquire me ... and the first thing I know is a launch warning and I am totally defensive. If someone notches me, is a small change in course all that is required to re-acquire him??? I ask this because, last night on-line a Mig-29 was notching me very well indeed ... and I just never re-acquired ... and ended up with an R-77 in the face!!! Thanks, James
GGTharos Posted November 22, 2004 Posted November 22, 2004 Use your eyes. If he's going to get tricky on you, especially in the mountains, you will -really- have to use your eyes, and not your radar. If you watch him,a nd you can guess his distance, you can fire your missile a him as he starts to turn into you , and then you can turn away. He will only get the warning when he is turned completely towards you, which gives your missile a good chance of success. This is because the RWR coverage only goes 30-45 degrees up/down of the aircraft from the plane of the wings. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
Kula66 Posted November 22, 2004 Author Posted November 22, 2004 GGT thanks ... didn't know about the RWR angles ... yet something else to kee in mind - is that modelled? If you dip a wing would you pick up on RWR a low bogey? How about the turning bit, if you notch and he turns, won't he see you again with little effort? Notching seems to be a way to put yourself on the defensive .... As for acquiring visually, 20k' up over mountains at 10miles ... hmmm ... I think that would be tricky! James
GGTharos Posted November 22, 2004 Posted November 22, 2004 Yep, it's modelled :D I don't know about the notch, unfortunately; I can't answer your question. I can tell you this, though, if you're going to notch and you have ARH's, fire back first. THis way he's on the defensive, too. If you have ARH only, you shouldve fired first, now you'll have to work hard, but if you play your ards right you can stay in the notch and possibly drop out of his radarcone entirely, and come back to surprise him. If you're at 20K and he's 10nm away, in the mountains, it's time to play his game. Pusht he nose down, go to auto-acq and find him that way, or visually. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
Kula66 Posted November 22, 2004 Author Posted November 22, 2004 GGT, >>If you're at 20K and he's 10nm away, in the mountains, it's time to play his game.<< Surely never play his game!! Just trun and run ... those Mig-29 are too deadly with r-73 and HMS close in ... I think that is what happens in RL!! I remember seeing pictures of F-16 over Kosovo ... loaded with 6 x AMRAAMs ... not a winder in sight!! Fire then run ... James
GGTharos Posted November 22, 2004 Posted November 22, 2004 I disagree. Just be prepared. R-73's really like flares, so long as your afterburner isn't on, and with 20k altitude, you don't need AB - you have altitude and you can be -very- aggressive. Just do it right. If he's trying to play cat and mouse with you, outthink him, it's not that hard - you're coming down with far better situational awareness, or shoudl be, and his shots aren't going to be all that much more effective than yours, jsut so long as you're prepared. If you lose him, turning tail won't help. Hide in the mountains ASAP and reset. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
Bungle_uk Posted November 24, 2004 Posted November 24, 2004 If he now turns, say 20deg, I will reappear on his radar as my velocity component along his course is greater then the gate on his radar ... I still don't see any change on my RWR, he can now fire and I'm in trouble. The point is that notching his radar, makes me lose sight of him, he only has to make a small change to re-acquire me ... and the first thing I know is a launch warning and I am totally defensive. If someone notches me, is a small change in course all that is required to re-acquire him??? I ask this because, last night on-line a Mig-29 was notching me very well indeed ... and I just never re-acquired ... and ended up with an R-77 in the face!!! Thanks, James OK, if he has a lock on you and you notch him, it wont make any difference if HE turns 20 degrees or so, you will still notch him. If YOU turn 20 degrees or so then yes you will re appear on his radar screen. Also, generally, if he has lost the lock on you, when he regains lock, it is unlikely that the missile will start to track again, he will probably have to fire another missile. I have seen this many times online in Hyperlobby
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