Does the KA-50 have an IR JAMMER?

[cool_t]

Other than flares, we all know to well of the deadly IR missiles and how hard it is to know that your being tracked by one. So far there is only a visual cue that an IR missile is targeting you.

 

My first question is "Is there some sort of sencor that can see a heat source or a phaze array radar that can track any type of incoming projectile?"

 

Second will there be an IR Jammer in the KA-50?

 

Also check this Vid out this shot is too close for comfort!

 

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=95e_1199400025

 

:joystick:

[GGTharos]

It depends ... there are several experimental models of the Ka-50, some of which have these things, some of which do not.

 

As it is currently, there is no IR jammer on the DCS Ka-50. And why aren't we using flares pre-emptively anyway? Most people wait to see the missile fired ... that's too late. You need to have the flares in the air before this happens. That's what your CMDS helps you do, and it works wonderfully on the Ka-50.

[cool_t]

look here i guess

 

Here is somthing I found.

 

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/electronics/q0191.shtml

[GGTharos]

Yup, that's a very good resource and touches briefly on 'why things work'.

[Fitz]

So far there is only a visual cue that an IR missile is targeting you.

 

 

Nevermind. I am tired. I just got done flying six hours of goggles.

Misunderstood your question.

[Boberro]

It depends ... there are several experimental models of the Ka-50, some of which have these things, some of which do not.

 

Most people wait to see the missile fired ... that's too late. You need to have the flares in the air before this happens. That's what your CMDS helps you do, and it works wonderfully on the Ka-50.

 

But some planes have few flares, so when it attacks, is secured until flares out, example after 2 minutes systhematical flaring. If count of Mig29 flares is correct in Lock on, Mig 29 has very few flares to defend.

[cool_t]

Right

 

Well,

 

Forinstance like the ET, stinger, avenger, and R-73, ect. There is realy no way of telling where or when they are being shot at you. There has got to be some sort of countermeasure other than Flares. Flares give away your posistion in BVR, and they also give away your posistion in a close fight. There have been hundreds of times where I lost lock on a bandit and a visual where flares gave away there direction.

 

As far as Low flying SEAD-CAS air-craft like the KA-50, A-10, AH-64, SU-25, one would think that IR detection and defence would be the "Norm"

 

IN LOMAC there is a IR JAMMER for the SU-25 right (Shift-E) if im not mistakin.

 

:joystick:

[GGTharos]

Take it up with MiG OKB. MiG-29's were made to do one attack - shoot all their missiles at the incoming enemy - pop their CMs and come back to land. They have enough for their job.

 

But some planes have few flares, so when it attacks, is secured until flares out, example after 2 minutes systhematical flaring. If count of Mig29 flares is correct in Lock on, Mig 29 has very few flares to defend.

[GGTharos]

And yet flares are exactly what it is RL. If you watch dogfight practice videos, you'll see that pilots - and the pilots of drones too - deploy flares pre-emptively, NOT after they've been shot at. So no, there IS no other countermeasure, except on a few select vehicles which have MAWS-type sensors and disco balls or laser turrets. It's going that way more and more, but not a a particularely fast pace.

 

Well,

 

Forinstance like the ET, stinger, avenger, and R-73, ect. There is realy no way of telling where or when they are being shot at you. There has got to be some sort of countermeasure other than Flares. Flares give away your posistion in BVR, and they also give away your posistion in a close fight. There have been hundreds of times where I lost lock on a bandit and a visual where flares gave away there direction.

 

 

IR defense is the 'norm' ... by popping flares as you fly about. This tactic has been tried and true for a very long time; the Su-25T is a special example that took the lessons learned from Afganistan and applied them, as far as the jammer goes. But LO misrepresents this jammer a little, too - the seekers of the stinger (which is what this jammer was made to defeat) are a bit different than those of the sidewinder, and that jammer might well not work on the sidewinder, for example (and certainly not the AIM-9X, which no longer uses traditional IR guidance).

 

As far as Low flying SEAD-CAS air-craft like the KA-50, A-10, AH-64, SU-25, one would think that IR detection and defence would be the "Norm"

 

IN LOMAC there is a IR JAMMER for the SU-25 right (Shift-E) if im not mistakin.

 

:joystick:

[VMFA117_Poko]

Take it up with MiG OKB. MiG-29's were made to do one attack - shoot all their missiles at the incoming enemy - pop their CMs and come back to land. They have enough for their job.

Exacly thought the same. Fuel tanks don't even let the aircraft to stay longer on station.

[GGTharos]

Yup. It's just LOMAC players that insist on using them differently than they were intended to. Which is fine, but then you have to live with the aircraft's deficiencies in the role you try to use it.

[VMFA117_Poko]

(...)But LO misrepresents this jammer a little, too - the seekers of the stinger (which is what this jammer was made to defeat) are a bit different than those of the sidewinder, and that jammer might well not work on the sidewinder, for example (and certainly not the AIM-9X, which no longer uses traditional IR guidance).

And what about jamming R-27ET in LockOn? Does it work with Su-25T?

[GGTharos]

It works on all missiles. If I understand the way the jammer functions correctly, it relies on timing the pulses in such a way that they somehow coincide with the seeker's disc RPM. A different missile will have a different RPM and differently designed disc occlusions, so it may not work against another missile seeker. Then again, it might - but it might not be as efficient (that's what I'd go with)

[VMFA117_Poko]

Understood.

 

If anyone is interested in infrared guidance here's the link (it's old -1982- but interesting) :

 

INFRA-RED GUIDANCE

[GGTharos]

That is an excellent resource Poko, and even though it's 'old', it is valid for all reticle-seeker missiles (ie. ALL the heaters we have in LO). It is no longer applicable to IIR missiles like AIM-9X and Python 5, Iris-Tm ASRAAM etc

 

By the way, if you understand the nuances of the reticle system, you can probably figure out why launching those things without prior lock is a BAD idea ...

[VMFA117_Poko]

By the way, if you understand the nuances of the reticle system, you can probably figure out why launching those things without prior lock is a BAD idea ...

You could hit yourself? ;)

I read long time ago that with early generation IR missiles it was nearly impossible to splash hostile in cloudy weather. A/C on cloud background was invisible for the seekers. Now capability increased - because of this reticle system?

 

I have other question: what other new systems are included in AIM-9X than thrust-vectoring or compatibilty with helmet mounted sight? Some in seekers changes maybe?

[GGTharos]

Not very likely ;)

 

You could hit yourself? ;)

 

This is because the seekers were not cooled. And even cooled ones, if they do not see a very strong target, they will slowly get 'pulled' towards the 'warmest' thing they can see ... be it a cloud or the ground. So if you shoot'em without a lock, it's likely they'll go somewhere other than your target.

 

I read long time ago that with early generation IR missiles it was nearly impossible to splash hostile in cloudy weather. A/C on cloud background was invisible for the seekers. Now capability increased - because of this reticle system?

 

Advanced guidance software, and of course the seekers is IIR, not reticle. It's like a maverick in a way, it literally sees the target.

 

I have other question: what other new systems are included in AIM-9X than thrust-vectoring or compatibilty with helmet mounted sight? Some in seekers changes maybe?

[Duke49th]

Sorry guys,

 

IR Jammer does not exist!(in reallife)

In reallife, you can only drop flares. You can build Aircrafts with small IR signature, but "jammer" does not exist...not yet. (And how should it work? Think about it! You can't jam light! You can disturb the sensor, with flares, nothing more!)

 

If they're were IR-Jammer in LOMAC, then it will be one more reason why I fly Falcon AF&OF and not LOMAC:D

 

I hope that DCS will not gives the KA-50 or any other Aircraft in Blackshark an IR-Jammer. It's not realistic! And I want it realistic!

I want Blackshark as realistic as possible!:thumbup:

 

(sry for my english:))

[GreyStork]

IR Jammer does not exist!(in reallife)

 

I'm sorry to contradict you, but IR jammers do indeed exist. One example is the AN/ALQ-212 used on the Apache and Blackhawk helicopters.

 

Perhaps more well-known is the older AN/ALQ-144 "disco light" used on the same platforms.

[GGTharos]

And to back up GreyStork ... what the heck do think radar is? It's light, too ;) So ... are you saying it cannot be jammed?

I think until you study how IR seekers work, you shouldn't be talking about what's realistic ;)

If falcon has NO IR jammers on certain aircraft that equip them (eg. heavy transports, bombers, certain AH-1 versions, Ah-64's and BlackHawks) then it is FALCON that is unrealistic.

[GreyStork]

And to back up GreyStork ... what the heck do think radar is? It's light, too ;)

 

If we have to be absolutely pedantically correct (and I assume we do, since we're all realism freaks :)), radar is usually in the microwave spectrum. In the spectrum of visible light, such a device would probably be classified as ladar. But both microwaves and visible light is electromagnetic radiation. This goes for all radio signals and microwaves alike (including radar), light from infrared to ultraviolet, X-rays and Gamma rays.

[GGTharos]

^^^^

That is certainly pedantically correct ;)

[Brit_Radar_Dude]

And how should it work? Think about it! You can't jam light! You can disturb the sensor, with flares, nothing more!

 

Sorry to contradict you, but they do exist as noted above by GreyStork - the AN/ALQ-144 he mentioned has been around forever! (Its predecessor was the ALQ-132 and that's even older - it was used in Vietnam in the 1960's)

 

ALQ-144 was developed while I was still at school in the 1970's. If you bother to google a bit I'm sure you can find a description of how it works (hint - it is all about how you can fool IR missiles that use rotating reticle techniques for their guidance).

 

The ALQ-212 is more advanced and uses a high powered laser (2000+ watts) to blind the seeker of the IR missile.