weight bug and pallents bug in F14b?

[Svandamme76]

Not sure if this is already known, but in the Stable version I have some odd behavior with the loadout.

 

 

For brevity

A9 is Aim9M

A7 is Aim7M

A5 is Aim54C

P4 is 4 pallets between the nacelles.

 

 

 

1

So I load up 2xA9 + 6x A5 + P4 and 2 bags Loadout shows 7482 lbs worth of weapons

Remove 1 A5 from outer mount and that shows 6356 lbs

 

7482-6356 = 1126 lbs That's what a loose Aim54C weighs according to the loadout screen.

Now add 1 A7 and total weight becomes 6982

6982-6356 = So the weight of a loose Aim7M is 626 lbs (same result with aim7F)

 

 

 

2

2xA9 6xA5 4 pallets 2 bags 7482 lbs

Now do remove payload on all 4 missiles between the nacelles.

That gives me 3375 lbs

In the sim there are clearly 4 pallets visible.

 

3 repeat #2, but choose remove pylon instead

Same weight.. but 4 grey crosses.

In the sim, the belly is now clean.. No pallets are visible

 

Note, there is no change in total weight either.

 

 

 

There's more.

If 1 single Aim54 without pallet weighs 1126 lbs on outer pylon.

Why am I only seeing a weight reduction of 4107 lbs for 4 Aim54C's

That's just not consistent at all.

An Aim 54 on a pylon or on a pallet.. the weight of the missile should not change.

Yet I have a 397lbs difference.. That's considerable.

 

 

 

4

So I load up 2xA9 + 6x A5 + P4 and 2 bags Loadout shows 7482 lbs worth of weapons

Replace all Aim54's with Aim7M (and thus removing the pallets)

 

Just based on basic math from 1&2&3 you would think

- 2 loose aim54 2x 1126 lbs

- 4 aim54+ not counted pallets or 4107 lbs

+ 6 loose aim7's 6x626 lbs

 

makes 4879 lbs

 

but instead the loadout screen shows me 4405 lbs

we have a discrepancy of about 474 lbs

remove 1 center Aim7 total weight is 3898 lbs

 

Center Aim7 weights 507 .. this one is lighter then the one on the outer pylon !

But this is more in line with information online of how much a Sparrow should weigh.

 

Why would there be a difference between the stations

they all are made the same

and they all need the same kind of cooling and connections.

 

 

5

Again start with 2 A9's 2 bags, 4 pallets, 6 A5's

 

Now click remove pylon on station 6 and 3 (front pallets)

Don't care bout weight at this point

But In the sim I will see 2 Aim54's in the back

No pallets up front

no pallets in the back

 

 

 

Same happens if you do remove pylon on just one station

Game automatically removes the adjecent Aim54 and all the pallets.

 

This only happens with station 6 and 3, it doesn't happen if you remove pylon on station 5 & 4

 

6 Remove all payloads and pylons everything from ALL stations

fuel 100%

gun 0%

fuel 16200

empty 44040

weapons 0

total 60239

 

Add 1 empty bag

fuel 16244

empty 44040

weapons 110

total 60393

Surely an empty tank has no fuel in the lines.. they would have been sucked dry on the previous run.

 

How can it add 44 lbs of fuel + 110 lbs of weapons

yet only add 100 lbs to the total weight??

Surely an empty bag and some fuel in the lines(which shouldn't be there) weighs more then 100 lbs?!!??!? That's 4 and a half meters worth of aluminium !!

 

7

Ran super scientific test with a slick tomcat. 5% fuel

6562 feet

430 kts

normandy map

start the sim, don't touch any controls

engines will run at 97%

 

Tomcat crashed into the sea doing exactly 660 knots

 

Did the same test with 4 pallets

Tomcat crashed into the sea doing exactly 660 knots

and it took about the same time on both occasions.

 

To me that says the pallets aren't included as drag either..

 

Jester did not eject on either test , which is odd given that he usually ejects on all other occasions when i'm flying.. I guess this time me not touching the controls gave him false confidence...

 

 

So summarized

 

1 Aim 7 on station 8B or 1B is 119 lbs to heavy

 

2 Aim 54c on Station 8B or 1B is about 100 lbs to heavy

 

3 removing the pallets is not counted in the total weight.

 

4 Remove pylon on station 6 or 3 causes in game visible problem with missing pallets and floating missiles on station 4 & 5

 

5 empty fuel tank adds 44 lbs of fuel weight 110 weapons, but only 100 total weight?

To light!

 

6 Pallets aren't accounted for as drag (or not subtracted from drag if removed, no way to tell for me which)

[IronMike]

Thank you for the detailed write up, we will take a close look.

[Svandamme76]

Thanks Mike, don't hesitate to ping me if anything isn't clear in my write up, or if you can't reproduce..

 

The main concern here is that the Sparrows become completely pointless if there's no weight /drag advantage involved .

 

Sparrow vs Aim54 on it's own should yield a reasonable benefit in the weight/drag department for station 8b and 1b. But overall that's not to bad.

twice as heavy

And perhaps but probably just a bit more drag since they are both designed for aerodynamic performance and both fully hanging in the wind so to speak

 

But a Sparrow sunk into the fuselage, between the nacelles

vs

Aim 54's on a pallet would be a MASSIVE difference

Both in weight and in drag.

 

Once source I found says those pallets weigh about 200 lbs each.

 

 

https://books.google.be/books?id=KM4hAQAAIAAJ&q=pallets+weigh+on+tomcat&dq=pallets+weigh+on+tomcat&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiM14CDisPpAhUIjqQKHeIDDl4Q6AEIKDAA

 

Seems a bit low to me, considering they are about 4 meters in length and not made out of pot metal..

Still, 4 pallets, is 800 lbs in total.. It should have it's impact on flight performance and G's.

 

but ok.. In Any case if 1 pallet weights 200 lbs, 1 empty tank of similar length, cannot weigh 100lbs..

And they add a lot more drag in between the nacelles.

[Svandamme76]

suspect the same applies for other weaponry

 

Mk83 can go on 1b or 8b, or on pallet as a single

 

Completely empty Tomcat, nothing on any station, no pallets, 0% gun ammo

 

1 mk83 should be 1000 lbs, give or take a few

1 mk82 should be 500 lbs , give or take a few

60239 lbs total

0 weapons

 

A

1 mk83 on station 8b on a bomb rack

1393

 

393lbs for that bomb rack

 

B

2 mk82's on 8b

1470 That would mean the bomb rack weights 470lbs for the bomb rack

Which would not be consistent with the weight of a single mk83 and the same bomb rack

 

C

4 mk83's each on their own pallet and attachment

4449 that means 1 mk83 + attachment + pallet is 1112 lbs

1 attachment + pallet is 158 lbs

 

 

D

4 mk82's each on own pallet and attachment

2632

So each mk82 + attachment + pallet is 658 lbs

1 attachment + pallet is 158 lbs

 

C&D is consistent, bit light per haps since a pallet should weight 200 and there's a single bomb attachment that must have some weight.

 

 

E

4 Mk82's on a Mak79

2213 lbs

So that's 4 500lbs bombs, 1 mak79 and 1 pallet

MAk79+ pallet is 213 lbs

 

F

3 Mk83's on a MAk 79

1660 lbs

3 500lbs bombs, 1 mak79 and 1 pallet

mak79 + 1 pallet is 160 lbs

 

In E and F also have visibility issues.. in some assymetrical loads the pallet is invisible

but in all stations loaded to the max.. i do see the pallets, but the bombs are free floating below the pallet.. there's no adapter holding them on the pallet..

 

Especially visible with mk81's or mk82.s

Kinda doubt Mk81's were ever cleared on Tomcat.

They aren't common ammunition anyway.. very little purpose in taking that kind of load up with a Tomcat.

US military discontinued the Mk81 quite quickly as it proved to be insufficient in Vietnam..

They probably never happened in the real word with Tomcats At least not the dumb bomb version.. So My vote is to remove those firecrackers from the menu..

 

Gonna knock it off now.. Guess i got a bit bored on the job , this homeworking.. distractions

oooh, piece of candy

Edited May 20, 2020 by Svandamme76

[Svandamme76]

I think the overweight 8B and 1B Sparrow and Phoenix is from that vertical bit hanging down.

 

The sim calculates that as an additional adapter. But in real life I don't think I've ever seen a Tomcat without one.. Except for perhaps the early prototypes during initial test flights.

 

1 Aim 7 on station 8B or 1B is 119 lbs to heavy << scratch this

 

2 Aim 54c on Station 8B or 1B is about 100 lbs to heavy << Scratch this

 

 

But the rest still is off.. Not pallet weight is accounted for in the loadout screen.

Those Phoenix missiles+ pallet should still weight more then the ones on 1B or 8B And loadout should add weight to any other weaponry that hangs under a pallet.

 

And.. the 2 Sidewinders on 1 pylon... was almost never ever done in the real world.

And when it was done.. that lower part on teh pylon off which the Phoenix or Sparrow was hung wasn't take off..

 

 

While in DCS, with 2 Sidewinders on the pylon.. that lower part is removed..

 

I doubt that ever happened in the real world, and doubt they ever took that part of the wing glove pylon off.. very little pictures (never mind good quality pictures) to support that ..

 

 

It's complicated.. But I think the sim currently allows combinations of stores in DCS is not realistic for what would have been possible in the real world.. And even in the Sim it looks impossible..

 

Put Aim54 in #4

3xMk82's in 5

4xMk82's in 3

and 3xMk83's on 6

 

The Mk83's show up so big, they overlap the front mk82's..

the nose cone of the Aim54 on 4 overlaps with the tail of the Mk82's on 3

 

So there's just to much combinations possible, that simply should not be allowed..

[IronMike]

Ok Svandamme, I talked to the other devs and actually this is simply DCS reporting the wrong weights for pylons in the weight bar. This will come a bit as a disappointment after all that meticulous research you have done, sorry about that. I actually knew this and should have remembered earlier to save you more research.

 

The wrongly reported weights btw mainly concern the pylons.

 

As for Mk81, it was cleared for the Tomcat and it was used, or made ready to use in service, as all weapons that we allow for the F-14. We won't make any changes there. Another such weapon are the zuni rockets - they could have used them at an instant's notice, but just never did. We make a difference between experimental weapons, and weapons that were made available in the fleet for regular use (whether they then did or not).

 

As for the combinations - that's just how DCS works. Don't use combinations that are unrealistic. The return for the development time needed to disallow all possible non realistic combinations is just not warranted. As you mention, in most cases it is obvious why. So that is simply the responsibility of the mission designer.

 

My apologies for my rather disappointing answers, I hope it brings a bit clarity though. Thank you again for the extended write up.

Edited May 22, 2020 by IronMike

[Svandamme76]

No apologies needed, thanks for checking and clarifying!!

Just for my info: the weights is just a loadout page issue in DCS

 

But the pallets themselves, in game should impart drag on the flight model?

 

I may have do some more extensive testing on that.. Just not sure how to measure drag

 

Maybe setup a start of a slick jet at 40000 feet at a given speed

and chronometer how long it takes to be come a hole in the ground

 

vs how long it takes one with 4 pallets.

 

It's far from scientific, but IF i did 4 tests with each config

and average em out per group.. it should give me 2 distinctly different values.

within each group there really should not be much variation at all given that the sim starts out the same and there isn't really much random turbulence in each start.

[IronMike]

No need to crash yourself, checking how much max speed you get will tell you the same and then you see the speed difference between stores, pallets etc. But, it has been done already and we fixed the stores drag in dcs that was way off. We finally found a very delicate way to work around it so that drag is matching what it is supposed to again, it took us very long. for the time being, until ED does not change how drag works with stores, we do not intend to touch this again.

 

You can read up on it here:

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=247508

[Svandamme76]

10-4 !