AWACS

[SFAL]

Hi all

 

i was wondering if it possible to have an awacs on station for both teams . Also i vas wondering if beslan airport beinng used fir red cas why is that. it is a rther difficult airport to land on if the something is damaged... lkie the dragshoot...it IS a nightmare

 

anyway i was to fly last wenesday... but my isp sucked... got it fixed and the 12th is set for me....

 

RED side :)

[Endy]

I think with AWACS it might be a bit too easy as russian planes will see every plane that the AWACS sees on the display, all friendly and enemy contacts. So I think it might be too easy and removes the whole "looking for targets" gameplay.

[SFAL]

if u ask for boogy dope in the radio command from AWACS u get the same on the F15. Only diffrence is that its not displayed. u get the BRA. Bearing. Range. Altitude.

 

it helps CAS planes to avoide enemy fighters... or help to find helos or enemy CAS planes as well...

 

ofcourse loosing this asset would be catastrhopic.....

[mwd2]

it will not only show you the aircrafts, it will also show each ground units.....!

 

but we need to run a test, under which condition an AWACS can work - remember an AWACS need a Fighter protection!!!

[SFAL]

yes... with awacs on station terrain masking would make sense...

 

i dont know how the radar on the awacs detects ground units... say in towns and citys but it is possible...

the standard flight pattern of awacs is within the air defence bounders. takeing out a "wizzard" takes a lot of prep and coordinated effort. it needs DEAD sorties and then fighters to do the trick.... it hard to pull off and also takes away flights from "normal" tasking......

[mwd2]

maybe we (Greg :music_whistling: ) simulate AWACS..... say in a radius of 80km around the center of the AO - each side have the option to call out "Declare Picture" to get BRA of enemy aircrafts in the 160km area (hooked to the Bullseye.... this option is ready every 10min. (or 15min.).

 

This would only give the aircrafts and not the ground vehicles.... but i am not complet sure if it is possible with lua scripting....!

[Endy]

The problem is, with current F10 settings, either everyone can see evrything, i.e. pilots can see enemies, or nobody sees the enemies, even the ground commanders.

The problem is you can't create different F10 settings for pilots (map only) and commanders (fog of war). And it makes our lives difficult in these scenarios...

[SFAL]

Just had a mission on today separatists aggression part 3 where awacs is present and enemy units were not visible

also in assault on minerale vody... same awacs is present and it only sees aircraft.. and not visible on f10 map...

 

might be worth having a look

[Endy]

This is not because of awacs. I was talking about MWD's idea of acting as awacs by players.

The mission you played just had the setting of "map only" or a similar one where you can't see enemy on F10 view. But that means the ground commander has the same restriction and can't see enemy units on the map, even these in the spotting range of his units. Hope that makes it clearer.

[Endy]

Besides, I'll give you an example why AWACS might be bad as well. In previous missions we had situations where some F15 were flying low, masking, so as to ambush the other side. If we saw them on the radar display (and we would with awacs active) this whole thing would lose it's meaning cause you would know all the time where the enemy is and if he's trying to ambush you from the side for example.

This is especially true for russian aircraft who see anemy and friendly planes on the display. Blue side can only request vector etc but they don't have this enhanced situational awareness.

So it depends what you want to get. With awacs it will be more head on, straight air superiority struggle but little suspense.

[SFAL]

The GC as awacs is handy...

if fog of war is enabled then when enemy aircraft comes into detection range the pilots can see targets as well... sure thing...

 

i can only speculate that the GC will get overwhelmed by players requesting "picture"

anyhow... looking forward for wenesday

[mwd2]

the "simulation" AWACS would not be controlled by GC...everyone can ask for picture.

 

i am not sure about the hidden option! if ypu set every unit (blue and red) on hide, who can see the unit....as i say this will need a test about the features (in particular everytime we got a new update....

[Endy]

Ok, to make things clear since there seems to be some confusion:

 

1. American AI AWACS answers to calls, gives you bearings etc. nothing out of the ordinary,

 

2. Russian Awacs also gives all fighters a data link and then they can see ALL friendly and hostile contacts on their MFD. This is a huge advantage in comparison to what the US awacs can do.

 

And now map settings:

 

3. With map settings set to "map only" no player will see anything but the map itself. It's good because this way pilots can't cheat but at the same time it's bad because the GC can't see hostiles as well, even in detection range.

 

4. If you set "fog of war", GC will be able to see units in detection range but so will the pilots.

 

I hope it's more clear now.

[Shapper]

Might have a solution to this. The way I figure it, we could try 1 of 2 things.

 

First.

Each side deploys an agreed upon number of ground EWR units. Mission settings remain as Fog-of-War and the GC would be able to act as GCI controller, or a second person could act as GCI to take the load off of the GC.

[Shapper]

Second.

This may take a bit more work and testing, but might prove kind of cool if it works. We have a couple of guys install Diveplane's Flyable AWACS mod (I have it). Then the mission builders would have to add a switched condition flag for when the AWACS birds spawn in. You then trigger the action "Turn Off AI" for the AWACS group from that flag. Theoretically this should kill the super-radar functions of the AWACS birds again necessitating the need for the guy flying the AWACS to act as the controller. The flyable AWACS use all the same flight controls as the SU-25T. So you just load that control lua and you're good to go. You can then fly to your assigned station, set the A/P for Altitude/Roll hold for the orbit, and go to the F10 map to act as the controller.

[Shapper]

Now, whether or not this would actually work out, I have no idea. But the theory seems sound to me that without the AI turned on, the guy in the AWACS bird would only receive the same information everyone else has on F10. I could be wrong though as this is really trying to "pimp" the software into something beyond what it actually is. Might be worth a try though.

[mwd2]

yeah this i clear, but if you hide every unit, too. The GC will still see his side vehicles, but the red pilots will not able to spote the ground units (as far as i know!

 

Back to the AWACS, i will not add an AWACS plane/unit, i will use the trigger and script system for simulate an huge radar system for recognize air traffic in a circle around the AO!

[Endy]

I'd be careful with triggers. The thing is, with this amount of players, the less complicated you make the mission in terms of scripts/triggers the better. SL mod can also cause trouble.

 

We are already suffering badly from crashes, freezes and other stability issues. With the number of people we have attending each mission, which is around 20-25, the less complicated the mission is the better taking into account the current state of DCS multiplayer... Of course we can test it but the only real test is the mission itself, as stuff usually works fine when you test it alone or with a few people and turns into a nightmare with larger amount pilots online.

 

PS. "The GC will still see his side vehicles, but the red pilots will not able to spote the ground units (as far as i know!)"

That is correct, and might be an ok solution if ground commanders agree to never see the enemy on the map and to acting blindly. Other than that I don't mind.

[Shapper]

Are you guys responding to my posts??? If so, then it doesn't seem as though you guys are understanding what I'm talking about. PM me or get with me before the mission on TS and I'll explain it better. I hate this character-limited posting thing.

[Shapper]

Another possible solution maybe??? Switch the ground targeting value in the lua from true to false for the E-3 and A-50 radars. Lua for the E-3 is posted below.

[Shapper]

["AN/APY-1"] =

{

type = RADAR_MULTIROLE,

scan_volume =

{

azimuth = {-180.0, 180.0},

elevation = {-15.0, 10.0}

},

max_measuring_distance = 500000.0,

scan_period = 10.0,

 

air_search = {

detection_distance =

{

[HEMISPHERE_UPPER] =

{

[ASPECT_HEAD_ON] = 250000.0,

[ASPECT_TAIL_ON] = 250000.0

},

[HEMISPHERE_LOWER] =

{

[ASPECT_HEAD_ON] = 250000.0,

[ASPECT_TAIL_ON] = 250000.0

}

},

},

surface_search ={

vehicles_detection = true,

RCS = 100,

RBM_detection_distance = 300000.0,

GMTI_detection_distance = 340000.0

[SFAL]

wooooow i kinda kicked off a shitstorm... :)

 

maybe best to have no awacs and wishper all the time to the GCs

 

the thing about russian fighter haveing a datalink as a advantage... yes thats is true... but the a10s have the same on their aircraft with NO awacs...

plus they get laser ir pointer and the basic frogg... well eyeballs.

 

so who knows...

 

about the who sees what... please try the server called War USSR vs NATO

 

its map only setting and aircraft wont see ground nor air units on the map...

on the other hand if u choose to be a GC you WILL see friendly AND enemy aircraft..

i had several kills this way... own team GC was telling me bearing and range... the other team didnt know what hit them untill the kill msg.

i havent looked in the ME how it works but you guys are more techi then me

[Endy]

Ok, will try to get on the server to DL the mission and check :) Thanks for the heads up, the visibility thing would help a lot.

 

Shapper, I think you mean that AWACS makes it possible to see ground units and how to disable it right? I was arguing more about A2A visibility.

 

PS. I tested it and indeed, it seems like map view only works for pilots only and GC can see other units. But I don't know if it's not something that is not available outside the editor. Also, the unit icons look different that when I fire up the mission on my PC, for example aircraft on that server look like big A icons, not plane shaped at all, no idea why.

[mwd2]

Also, the unit icons look different that when I fire up the mission on my PC, for example aircraft on that server look like big A icons, not plane shaped at all, no idea why.

 

if you change the setting between metric and imperial - you get different icons on the map.

[Endy]

Ok, I tested "map only" settings again and it seems they fixed it. Aircraft see nothing and GC sees his own units and enemy units in detection range. So by all means we can use it. There are some minor quirks somethimes with refreshing but switching from map view to vehicle view sometimes helps.

 

if you change the setting between metric and imperial - you get different icons on the map.

 

Nope, that's not it. You can see what I mean on this shot: https://www.dropbox.com/s/35pci8i85ksy281/Screen_121211_000536.jpg

The aircraft are shown as rounded cones with A inside them. It's the first time i see it and it's only on that server. Normally aircraft look like aircraft shaped icons inside squares.