[INVESTIGATING]HMCS markers not accurate when aircraft is banked / moving head around

[Luft Waffel]

Hello,

 

Thank you for fixing the bug on the A-10CII Scorpion HMCS where markers where not being rendered in the correct position when the aircraft is banked and the head is moved around. It is in the patchnotes as "

• Fixed slight roll of the entire HMCS symbology when VR headset is used - it directly affected horizon line, as well as spatial symbols positions
  

"

Please can you apply whatever you did to the hornet and viper HMCS systems too, and any other technology in DCS that works in a similar way. It is still bugged on all the other systems in the game except the A-10CII. When I originally reported the bug on the A-10CII section I did also say it was a bug on the hornet and attached a track showing it. If it is necessary I can manually go through and copy and paste this post on the viper section and any other relevant section of the forum as well so that it is noted and fixed there as well. If it is necessary I can attach a track for the viper but the bugs exists in exactly the same way it does on the hornet and did on the Warthog 2.

jhmcsbug(solvedOnA10C2).trk

[hein22]

is this when using VR only?

 

The link16 in the hornet has a 12 seconds update rate (not realistic according to Mover). So whatever movement they contact makes will have to wait the remaining time to be updated, leaving you with an old symbol in the wrong place.

 

SADL in the A10c is real time updated (or 1 second Im not sure).

 

The only thing the hornet does well with the HMD Datalink symbols is extrapolating them when your own aircraft moves.

[Luft Waffel]

is this when using VR only?

 

The link16 in the hornet has a 12 seconds update rate (not realistic according to Mover). So whatever movement they contact makes will have to wait the remaining time to be updated, leaving you with an old symbol in the wrong place.

 

SADL in the A10c is real time updated (or 1 second Im not sure).

 

The only thing the hornet does well with the HMD Datalink symbols is extrapolating them when your own aircraft moves.

 

Watch the replay I attached.

 

I explain it in my original post for the same problem on the A10CII: https://forums.eagle.ru/forum/englis...ng-head-around

 

Its the exact same problem, it has nothing to do with the things added in the most recent update, and the issue existed before. As I said, it has been fixed this patch on the Warthog 2, but it seems that the dev teams for each aircraft did not talk to each other and share the fix to be applied to all modules with HMD systems, hence why I'm making the exact same post again in this section for the hornet team to see. Hopefully they can also send the fix to whoever is doing the viper so that I don't have to post it a third time.

 

It is a global issue with the logic the devs used to determine the position to draw the markers at as it doesn't seem to account for the viewpoint not being straight and level if the aircraft is banked. The issue was solved for the A10CII and needs to be applied to all other aircraft that have HMDs.

[hein22]

I watched your track and there is nothing wrong in it. What you probably didn't know is that helmets have a very narrow FOV and when you actually see the aircraft doesn't mean the FOV of the helmet as currently positioned is within the aircraft that you see with your own eyes. There is no bug here.

[Luft Waffel]

I watched your track and there is nothing wrong in it. What you probably didn't know is that helmets have a very narrow FOV and when you actually see the aircraft doesn't mean the FOV of the helmet as currently positioned is within the aircraft that you see with your own eyes. There is no bug here.

 

I am aware that the FOV of the display does not cover the whole screen, and when the aircraft locked is outside the FOV the box will obviously be confined to the display. In the track I do frequently move the aircraft out of the FOV which I understand is confusing but this is not the issue I am referring to. When the aircraft is within the FOV, you can see how moving my head up and down pushes the box left and right and moving my head left and right pushes the box up and down. This is the bugged behaviour that I am trying to describe and what has been fixed on the A-10CII.

 

If you have head tracking or VR you can reproduce this yourself by locking something, or using a datalink contact, or anything that marks a point in 3D space(e.g. not the airspeed or altitude indicators), banking the aircraft a steep angle and then look at the marker while moving your head about slightly. You will notice how the markers shift as you move your head. This was very noticeable on the A-10CII Scorpion but they have fixed it and if you try the same thing on that you will notice how it behaves normally now. The effect is larger and more noticeable at higher angles of bank.

[hein22]

 

I am aware that the FOV of the display does not cover the whole screen, and when the aircraft locked is outside the FOV the box will obviously be confined to the display. In the track I do frequently move the aircraft out of the FOV which I understand is confusing but this is not the issue I am referring to. When the aircraft is within the FOV, you can see how moving my head up and down pushes the box left and right and moving my head left and right pushes the box up and down. This is the bugged behaviour that I am trying to describe and what has been fixed on the A-10CII.

 

If you have head tracking or VR you can reproduce this yourself by locking something, or using a datalink contact, or anything that marks a point in 3D space(e.g. not the airspeed or altitude indicators), banking the aircraft a steep angle and then look at the marker while moving your head about slightly. You will notice how the markers shift as you move your head. This was very noticeable on the A-10CII Scorpion but they have fixed it and if you try the same thing on that you will notice how it behaves normally now. The effect is larger and more noticeable at higher angles of bank.

 

Again, that's because the hornet's HMD FOV is SO narrow that it makes you think the symbol drifts, but it is not. I do not have this problem, just tested it a couple of times. The scorpion has a massive FOV. The JHMCS has it so low that it merely goes a couple of centimeters.

[Luft Waffel]

 

Again, that's because the hornet's HMD FOV is SO narrow that it makes you think the symbol drifts, but it is not. I do not have this problem, just tested it a couple of times. The scorpion has a massive FOV. The JHMCS has it so low that it merely goes a couple of centimeters.

 

So the fact that the current behaviour is exactly the same as how it was on the A10CII Scorpion HMCS before it was fixed is intended, and its actually a feature and doesn't need to be fixed? AND this is now just because of the FOV of the JHMCS? Which just randomly decreases substantially as you roll the aircraft, but strangely not when the aircraft is straight and level? AND the radar contact box is supposed to slide around from side to side when it reaches these new boundaries instead of behaving normally? This is how its supposed to be? :megalol:

[hein22]

 

So the fact that the current behaviour is exactly the same as how it was on the A10CII Scorpion HMCS before it was fixed is intended, and its actually a feature and doesn't need to be fixed? AND this is now just because of the FOV of the JHMCS? Which just randomly decreases substantially as you roll the aircraft, but strangely not when the aircraft is straight and level? AND the radar contact box is supposed to slide around from side to side when it reaches these new boundaries instead of behaving normally? This is how its supposed to be? :megalol:

 

But I don't have that problem. Mine is rock steady until the FOV ends. Maybe a repair?

[Harker]

Are you talking about the fact that if you're moving your head around, especially tilting it etc, the Datalink symbols don't stay where they should? If this is the issue, I agree, it's not working correctly. The symbols are simply points in space, so they should remain in place as you move your head.

 

The speed that they should move on the JHMCS should be limited only be the refresh rate of the display, which is much higher, seeing as we have no issues with the update rate of the L&S box, the locator arrow or the heading compass, on the JHMCS.

 

BTW, the same issue exists with the EW symbols. They are just stored on an azimuth (that azimuth is provided by the RWR) and they should move around at the same refresh rate as that of the display. That's not the same as the RWR signal update rate, just to be clear. Same as the current issue has nothing to do with the Link 16 update rate.

 

So, unless there's a hardware limitation preventing everything from refreshing at the refresh rate of the display, kinda like in the F-14B's HUD, which is unlikely, all spatial symbols and cues etc should update at the display's refresh rate, as you move your head/jet around.

Edited November 7, 2020 by Harker

[hein22]

But I don't have that problem. Mine is rock steady until the FOV ends

[Harker]

But I don't have that problem. Mine is rock steady until the FOV ends

 

You mean that if you tilt your head to the side and move it weirdly etc, the JHMCS datalink symbols are always exactly where they should be? Like they're practically fixed in space?

[hein22]

 

You mean that if you tilt your head to the side and move it weirdly etc, the JHMCS datalink symbols are always exactly where they should be? Like they're practically fixed in space?

 

Yes, 100%. Up until the FOV ends, which is damn narrow, but yes, rock steady.

 

Trust me, I report more bugs than anyone here, not trying to be a dcs fan or anything. I just don't see this bug happening.

 

 

Thanks.

[Harker]

 

Yes, 100%. Up until the FOV ends, which is damn narrow, but yes, rock steady.

 

Trust me, I report more bugs than anyone here, not trying to be a dcs fan or anything. I just don't see this bug happening.

I trust you mate, I just want to make sure we're talking about the same thing, because if we do, I have a problem with my install.

 

Can you please take a look here and tell me if what I see is different from what you see? Both for the datalink and the EW symbols.

 

It's much more prominent when banking quickly, by it also shows up when moving the head.

 

Thanks!

Edited November 8, 2020 by Harker

[hein22]

I trust you mate, I just want to make sure we're talking about the same thing, because if we do, I have a problem with my install.

 

Can you please take a look here and tell me if what I see is different from what you see? Both for the datalink and the EW symbols.

 

It's much more prominent when banking quickly, by it also shows up when moving the head.

 

Thanks!

 

Interesting! I didn't particularly find anything wrong in the video, so at least we know we are talking about different perspectives here. At the end they drifted heavily but I guess that's due to a refresh rate not being real time. I don't think there is anything wrong in your DCS, we just differ in our lens, which is totally fine.

[Harker]

 

Interesting! I didn't particularly find anything wrong in the video, so at least we know we are talking about different perspectives here. At the end they drifted heavily but I guess that's due to a refresh rate not being real time. I don't think there is anything wrong in your DCS, we just differ in our lens, which is totally fine.

Thanks for taking a look!

 

That's the thing though, they shouldn't be drifting like that during hard maneuvering and the same goes for the EW symbols. In the A-10C II, with the exact same test, the Datalink symbols always stay on top of the aircraft, no matter what maneuvers you make, which makes sense, since they're spatial features.

 

The JHMCS has a higher refresh rate, you can see that by doing the same test, but looking at the L&S TD box, where it'll stay pretty much on top of the target, as you maneuver. So it should utilize that refresh rate for everything it shows.

[hein22]

Thanks for taking a look!

 

That's the thing though, they shouldn't be drifting like that during hard maneuvering and the same goes for the EW symbols. In the A-10C II, with the exact same test, the Datalink symbols always stay on top of the aircraft, no matter what maneuvers you make, which makes sense, since they're spatial features.

 

The JHMCS has a higher refresh rate, you can see that by doing the same test, but looking at the L&S TD box, where it'll stay pretty much on top of the target, as you maneuver. So it should utilize that refresh rate for everything it shows.

 

Hey!

 

I forgot to mention that the EW symbols do present this bug clearly (for ages now), as for the helmet I guess the report is done so if it's a bug and I'm wrong then it'll be fixed in two weeks.

[Luft Waffel]

I trust you mate, I just want to make sure we're talking about the same thing, because if we do, I have a problem with my install.

 

Can you please take a look here and tell me if what I see is different from what you see? Both for the datalink and the EW symbols.

 

It's much more prominent when banking quickly, by it also shows up when moving the head.

 

Thanks!

 

I watched your video, I have no idea whether that's a bug or if its how its intended to be, but that is not the behaviour I am trying to describe, and what I tried to demonstrate in the track file I attached at the top. If it is a bug you should add it in a separate bug report because its not what this report is about.

 

The issue I reported is not to do with the datalink refresh rate or anything added in the most recent update, it existed before and was the same as on the A10CII before it was fixed in the most recent update.

 

To reproduce STT lock a target at any distance, the further the target the better. You will have the target box in your JHMCS display. Roll your aircraft as steeply as you can and hold it there steady, as close to 90 degrees angle of bank as possible will show the issue most. Then move your head around very slightly from side to side and up and down while keeping the target with in the display FOV. Don't shake your head around massively like in the video just a little wobble. Wobble your head slightly in the horizontal and slightly vertical axis separately but not both at the same time and you will notice as your head goes from side to side the target box slides up and down slightly and wobbling your head up and down slides the box from side to side. If you play on flat screen it might also be easier to see if you zoom in all the way while doing it. It is much more noticeable and easy to see in VR, as it is easier to make small head movements and everything basically seems much larger as it is right in front of your eyes.

 

If you are unable to see the bug it is either because you have misunderstood what I am trying to describe and are looking for the wrong thing, or you are not reproducing it correctly because for example you may not have had the aircraft banked while doing it, or you are moving your head around too much and just pushing the box outside of the FOV in which case the box won't be on the target anyway. In your video you where straight and level where the bug does not occur at all. The issue seems to be caused by the drawing function the game uses for HMDs not accounting for the viewpoint axis not being parallel to the ground. It is a coding logic oversight and needs to be corrected by the coders and won't be fixed by simply running a repair of your game files.

 

I originally reported this issue because it was very, very noticeable on the A10CII Scorpion system and expected the devs to carry across the fix to all of the other HMDs but they haven't done that which is why I reported it again.

 

Datalink contacts and RWR symbols not behaving as they should also doesn't seem right but it has nothing to do with this and is a separate issue that is new unlike the issue I am describing which has existed since the JHMCS was first added. The report was only made now as I was expecting it to be fixed in the last update but it wasn't.

[Fri13]

Is this about the all symbols/markers or just the ones that are "already there"? As I experienced twice where the designation (SPI, hooking etc) didn't happen at the cross but somewhere far edge of the HMS FOV.

[Santi871]

As for the EW symbols, the refresh rate matches known footage that can be found on google/youtube/etc. For the MIDS symbols, the refresh rate is already reported.

[hein22]

For the MIDS symbols, the refresh rate is already reported.

 

What refresh rate bug are you talking about? I didn't know of any and there are no mids refresh rate bugs discussed here.