Analyse messages from AWACS and Control Tower ?

[Brit_Radar_Dude]

1) I tend to agree with Az' regarding RWR not showing range per se (rather showing power) and ensuring that noobs understand that difference. An analogy that always springs to my mind (not a very good one, but a laugh riot) is the episode of "Father Ted" where he explains to Dougal the difference between cows that look the same size,

 

Now concentrate this time, Dougal. These [he points to some plastic cows on the table] are very small;

those [pointing at some cows out of the window] are far away...

 

2) Regarding TEWS working together with the aircraft radar, the public source linked by Azrayen mentions "interoperability with the APG-70 radar". In my experience in the Defense industry, the primary meaning of the term interoperability is "they don't **** each other up when both are switched on". So my initial reaction to this statement is they mean it passes on jamming frequency information to the APG-70 so that the radar can choose an area of its frequency band to operate, so it is not affected by the jamming.

[Majesco]

The '29' symbology in the RWR represents all Russian fighter's and '15' is another Eagle '50' or 'E3' is AWACS.

 

yeah, it's very difference from Lock On manual that Mig-29, Su-27, Su-33 are displayed in turn as symbols of "29", "27" and "33" on TEWS

 

but in game the F-15's TEWS displays all Russian fighters as symbol "29" only, we only get exact information about aircrafts by locking on them then see the bottom of VSD screen

[Azrayen]

GGTharos & Syncho : Thanks for updating the data about the radar.

As does Brit_Radar_Dude, I ask myself what means the "interoperability" or "link" between the TEWS and the radar, i.e. in which way(s) does the radar help the TEWS (I do have some guesses, but if someone has public accurate data, I'll be glad to read them) :)

 

yeah, it's very difference from Lock On manual that Mig-29, Su-27, Su-33 are displayed in turn as symbols of "29", "27" and "33" on TEWS but in game the F-15's TEWS displays all Russian fighters as symbol "29" only

IIRC the "all on '29' symbol" logic was implemented with patch 1.12, whose read-me file should explain that. LockOn & Flaming Cliffs manuals were correct at the time they were released, but are no more on this point :)

 

we only get exact information about aircrafts by locking on them then see the bottom of VSD screen

Yes, this doesn't use the RWR but the radar NCTR ability :)

 

Cheers

Az'

[Guest Syncho]

1) I tend to agree with Az' regarding RWR not showing range per se (rather showing power) and ensuring that noobs understand that difference. An analogy that always springs to my mind (not a very good one, but a laugh riot) is the episode of "Father Ted" where he explains to Dougal the difference between cows that look the same size,

 

Yes this is the case IRL! but the RWR in LO does give range presision accuratley to within -/+2-3nm, I know this because on my RWR I have a homebrew mod that consists of several visual cue points located on the RWR, these visual cues when alligned up with the 29 symbology on the RWR have proven to be acceptably accurate in regards to 'distance' to the RF emitter & ECM burn through range on all Russ AC. Using these visual cue's I can time within 2-4 seconds ECM burnthrough consistantly and accuratley.

 

As we all know, the RL Eagle RWR display 'scales' strength to the power emitter & not distance. I'm trying to explain that the Eagle's RWR in LO has a good degree of accuracy regarding 'distance' not strength to any RF emitting 'flyable' Russian fighter. I'll 100% state as a fact that a MiG-29s in LO will be in the exact same postition on the Eagle's RWR as a SU-33 would be at any given identical distance.

 

In LO the Eagle's RWR does scale distance on the RWR screen, also the scale is measurable using visual cues..

 

APG63/70 is a subsystem of TEWS. Anything connected to the CDC will be a component of TEWS. TEWS in a virtual nutshell is the CDC.

Edited June 23, 2008 by Syncho

[Frostie]

I'll 100% state as a fact that a MiG-29s in LO will be in the exact same postition on the Eagle's RWR as a SU-33 would be at any given identical distance.

 

In LO the Eagle's RWR does scale distance on the RWR screen, also the scale is measurable using visual cues..

 

I would imagine that the LOMAC Eagle RWR is just the same as the Russian RWR in respect that the weaker Mig29 radar appears weaker when at the same range as a Su-27/33.

Distance is scaled but the 29 and 27/33 are at different ranges.

 

And I just tryed a 1 min test and it is as I thought.

Better make it 99%. ;)

Edited June 23, 2008 by Frostie

[Guest Syncho]

I would imagine that the LOMAC Eagle RWR is just the same as the Russian RWR in respect that the weaker Mig29 radar appears weaker when at the same range as a Su-27/33.

Distance is scaled but the 29 and 27/33 are at different ranges.

 

And I just tryed a 1 min test and it is as I thought.

Better make it 99%. ;)

 

Hi Frostie, I can see no visual 'distance' indiffrence in the symbology on the Eagle's RWR when using the RWR to scale 'distance' to any RF emitter be that either MiG-29S or SuXX.

 

Build a mission & set a 33 and a 29-S in exactly the same place, heading and speed but with a diffrence in height then add an Eagle say 50nm apart from the 2 Russ fighters, now jump in the Eagle and watch the RWR the 29 symbols for the 33 & 29S will overlap.

Edited June 23, 2008 by Syncho

[Guest Syncho]

yeah, it's very difference from Lock On manual that Mig-29, Su-27, Su-33 are displayed in turn as symbols of "29", "27" and "33" on TEWS

 

but in game the F-15's TEWS displays all Russian fighters as symbol "29" only, we only get exact information about aircrafts by locking on them then see the bottom of VSD screen

 

Yes ED changed the RWR symbology between 1.02 and 1.1 I beleive. This is a semi accurate change being that the Eagle's RWR is a passive non agressive RF sensor and has no NCTR ability. NCTR is primarily the APG's job which is then handed over to the CDC for number crunching. I beleive the CDC analyzes & comparers the heuristic R/F return from the contacts turbines & leading edges.

 

Don't quote me but I'm sure I'd read that NCTR & JTIDS changes the Eagle's RWR symbology with the relevant Symbol specific to that RF emitting airbourne contact.

[Majesco]

Sorry, what do NCTR and JTIDS mean ?

 

I've just searched Google: NCTR = Non-Cooperative Target Recognition of Air Targets, right ?

[GGTharos]

Correct. NCTR uses the target's radar return to determine aircraft type.

 

JTIDS is a datalink system.

[Frostie]

Hi Frostie, I can see no visual 'distance' indiffrence in the symbology on the Eagle's RWR when using the RWR to scale 'distance' to any RF emitter be that either MiG-29S or SuXX.

 

Build a mission & set a 33 and a 29-S in exactly the same place, heading and speed but with a diffrence in height then add an Eagle say 50nm apart from the 2 Russ fighters, now jump in the Eagle and watch the RWR the 29 symbols for the 33 & 29S will overlap.

Ive just tryed a mission now with a 27 and 33 side by side 70km from my F-15, and from the Eagle's RWR I got two 29 symbols overlapping but when I switched the 33 for a Mig29, the Mig's symbol appeared weaker and further behind the Flanker's symbol.

 

This is as I expected as im almost certain that the Eagle's RWR is a copy of the Russians RWR only tweaked to suit the Western model, in the same trend as the 15's Radar is a port over of the Flanker Radar.(in game ofcourse)

 

At the same range in a Russian plane you would receive a Flanker at 4 bars from full strength and a Mig at 6-7 bars.

Edited June 23, 2008 by Frostie

[Guest Syncho]

Ive just tryed a mission now with a 27 and 33 side by side 70km from my F-15, and from the Eagle's RWR I got two 29 symbols overlapping but when I switched the 33 for a Mig29, the Mig's symbol appeared weaker and further behind the Flanker's symbol.

 

This is as I expected as im almost certain that the Eagle's RWR is a copy of the Russians RWR only tweaked to suit the Western model, in the same trend as the 15's Radar is a port over of the Flanker Radar.(in game ofcourse)

 

At the same range in a Russian plane you would receive a Flanker at 4 bars from full strength and a Mig at 6-7 bars.

 

Yes there is a diffrence at far distance like 40 km now try it just outside of the ECM breakthrough you will notice that there all very close at this distance! and within 2-3 nm accuracy. At 12-14 nm notice how ALL the symbol's align! It's not pin point but it's enough to be accurate to within a couple of nm's.

 

Either way the Eagle's RWR is still accurate enough to use visual cue points on and scale with a good degree of accuracy. Like I said I can 'time' ECM burnthrough within 2-4 seconds consistantly.

 

I have to agree I think the Eagle's RWR & avionics is a copy and paste of the Flanker's, just a diffrent GUI.

Edited June 24, 2008 by Syncho

[Frostie]

Yes there is a diffrence at far distance like 40 km now try it just outside of the ECM breakthrough you will notice that there all very close at this distance! and within 2-3 nm accuracy. At 12-14 nm notice how ALL the symbol's align! It's not pin point but it's enough to be accurate to within a couple of nm's.

 

Either way the Eagle's RWR is still accurate enough to use visual cue points on and scale with a good degree of accuracy. Like I said I can 'time' ECM burnthrough within 2-4 seconds consistantly.

 

I have to agree I think the Eagle's RWR & avionics is a copy and paste of the Flanker's, just a diffrent GUI.

Yes the same is true of the Russian RWR's at close range (burn through) the strength is indistinguishable between F-15/27/33 and Mig29, which is understandable.

 

But you will agree now that it is dependent on strength rather than distance and at the majority of BVR ranges the difference is greatly noticeable.;)

[Azrayen]

Yes the same is true of the Russian RWR's at close range (burn through) the strength is indistinguishable between F-15/27/33 and Mig29, which is understandable.

 

But you will agree now that it is dependent on strength rather than distance and at the majority of BVR ranges the difference is greatly noticeable.;)

 

Well, I'm not really confortable with maths, but isn't that absolutely logical, regarding the 1/r^2 formula ? :book:

 

If true, it's still related to signal strenght, not emitter distance.

But I agree, Syncho, you may "guess" the distance with an acceptable precision at close range (and at longer range if you know the opponent aircraft type, which is easier - except for the 29/27/33 - with an US RWR).

 

Cheers

Az'

 

Cheers

Az'

[Majesco]

In which situations will the F-15C lose the lock on target (while it was locking on a bandit) ?

[GGTharos]

In some cases, when the bandit uses the jammer.

When the radar is gimbaled out.

When the bandit enters the notch.

[Azrayen]

In which situations will the F-15C lose the lock on target (while it was locking on a bandit) ?

 

- target goes out of radar "cone" (too high/low, too far, too far left/right), or behind the terrain mask (behind the hill, basically)

- [almost same] you set you radar to look higher, lower, or more right/left, and it didn't anymore looks were the target is.

- target beams you (~90° course + look-down situation)

- target sets its jammers ON (depend on other parameters, such as range principally)

- [to be checked in STT mode, I'm not sure] target flies the same heading & same speed as you => the doppler filter cancel it, cause it's the same type of return as the secondary lobe ground echo.

 

Note : This is not only for the F-15C, the russian flyables are accordingly limited, except that when possible (range, aspect), the EOS will automatically lock a target that the radar looses.

 

Cheers

Az'

 

[edit] With this (interesting) question, we're far from the original topic title. May I suggest it should be better to open another thread, in order to comply with the "one topic = one thread" implicit rule ? ;)

[re-edit] Whow, I just discovered the rep's stats option of the user CP. I must then thank some people here to try to stop me as it seems that I'm "ruining the topic and being a rivet counter". Is that just because we disagree on some points ? :D

Edited June 25, 2008 by Azrayen