AI woes

[GTengineer]

I am getting so disheartened with this game. The AI is absolutely horrendous. I can put up with short comings in models, radars, etc. But this ridiculous AI makes the game unplayable in single player.

 

Here is an example:

I am leading a group of 4 F15C (all excellent skill BTW) against 2 groups of 2 x Su-30 and 2 x Su-34. I tell the idiot AI wingmen to attack about 25 miles out (I made sure to do this about 3-4 times to make sure I didnt just forget). I target the 2 Su-34 as I deem them more dangerous. I shoot down one with AIM-120C, then the second one tries to escape below my radar among the mountains. Of course I spend what seems like an eternitity trying to lock up this bastard again (he on the other hand seems to have instantaneous lock on me no matter where I am). I finally lock him up again as we both shoot at each other. I evade him and shoot him down with another AIM-120C.

 

I start turning and scanning for the other 2 Su-30 which of course my wingmen havent done squat about yet and I cannot find them. I hear this engine roaring behind me and I think to myself I am dead one of the Su-30 is behind me. Look back and what do I see? My idiot wingman numero uno, he hadn't even engaged all this time. Three seconds later I hear a missile warning and beam it on my 3, of course by then it is too late and whooopy I am dead. They are so inept they can't even keep their freaking targets "busy". I am not asking much, not asking them to shoot down as many as me, just keep them occupied. :doh:

 

BTW their two flights were flying about 6-7 miles apart so I couldn't really keep track visually of all 4 bandits, while 1) defensive maneuvering the first group, 2) among all the mountains.

 

/Rant over

 

Do you guys have any tips on how to better manage them? I have tried a general "attack bandits" and I have tried assigning them their own targets which is also a pain when you have to worry about your own threat. :helpsmilie:

Edited August 8, 2008 by GTengineer

[Brit_Radar_Dude]

Yes, your AI wingmen are dumb. Yes, the bandit AI have instant locks on you and can see you through clouds etc.

 

Things that help. Use radio to order your wingmen to switch on their radars. Don't assume they always have it switched on (ditto with their ECM). I generally lock up a bandit and then instruct an individual wingman to attack that bandit and repeat while I have the time to do it. With your AI wingmen you have to try to take the time to be a battle manager before getting into the fight yourself.

 

If you want sensible behaviour, go online. :)

[GTengineer]

Yes, your AI wingmen are dumb. Yes, the bandit AI have instant locks on you and can see you through clouds etc.

 

Things that help. Use radio to order your wingmen to switch on their radars. Don't assume they always have it switched on (ditto with their ECM). I generally lock up a bandit and then instruct an individual wingman to attack that bandit and repeat while I have the time to do it. With your AI wingmen you have to try to take the time to be a battle manager before getting into the fight yourself.

 

If you want sensible behaviour, go online. :)

 

I never expected them to keep their radars off in battle. Thanks for the tip, that may explain why sometimes they insist in not seeing a bandit unless I target it and tell them to specifically attack my target sometimes.

[RedTiger]

First and foremost, don't try to do a four-ship. Yes, it sucks I know, but you will spend more time herding cats then actually flying. A two ship - myself and a wingman - is the usual for me. I can manage 3, but 3 isn't very realistic and just amounts to having more moving targets for the AI to try to kill since you don't really have a full second element to your flight. If you're flying a stock campaign/mission OR someone elses, you may not be able to do this. This is why I fly neither and just make my own. Unfortunately if you fly 2-ship, you'll have to limit your opposition by the same amount, unless you enjoy having your wingman killed every time.

 

Brit_Radar_Dude has it right about managing the AI BEFORE you get into a fight. You need to get bandits sorted and wingmen in place with orders before you launch your missiles. From there, you basically have to let things happen as they will until your fight is over.

[Boneski]

AI is not that bad!

 

The AI is not that bad. You just have to know how to use them.

What did you assign their mission as? Did you give them a target in the editor?

First it depends on you the user... like others have said.. get the AI into the fight by commanding

them to turn on their sensors. Just after take off once you get formation sorted is a good time to do all of that.

It's pretty much a good idea to drive with them on if you want to play in a realistic fashion. Despite what you read...

you can't really hide that many tons of metal, heat and noise in a cold empty sky, but this is not air combat so you have

to take advantage of the stuff you have.

Also use your formations that have been modeled. Spread the boys out if you know that you plan to engage a contact.

Also you should always fly with Airborne Warning Aircraft or EW ground radar relay stations. The game supports both.

That way you will have data link information. That alone helps a lot in this game. You see what the AI sees and you will

get cueing and threat data. Which helps you see what’s going on.

You can fly with a 4 ship but like someone said... you can't sep into 2 ship elements like you can in the air but that’s to be

expected from a program running on a computer. So yes it's harder but you can make it work to good effect.

When using all the above, playing the game with and against the AI has been a pretty cool experience. It’s not perfect but

It gets the job done. Good Luck and again use your tools!

[GTengineer]

RedTiger, I am playing the missions that come with the game and downloaded ones because I like the element of surprise and unfortunately I have not been able to get LMR to run on my machine (some parser error).

 

Boneski, what do you mean by data link information? I thought this was not supported for the "NATO" forces in LOMAC? I am flying the F-15C, I do use AWACS calls for nearest bandits but when merged in the mountains it is not very useful.

 

I think I am gonna practice managing them by flying the mission from a stand off position and seeing what the heck it is they do. One question though, if I send my wingman to attack a specific target, once he accomplishes that, will he continue to attack nearby enemies? I usually assign them individual targets and once they breakaway and close in on their targets, I order them to "attack bandits" so they don't focus on one target alone.

 

Back to work I guess :pilotfly:

Edited August 8, 2008 by GTengineer

[Boneski]

RedTiger, I am playing the missions that come with the game and downloaded ones because I like the element of surprise and unfortunately I have not been able to get LMR to run on my machine (some parser error).

 

Boneski, what do you mean by data link information? I thought this was not supported for the "NATO" forces in LOMAC? I am flying the F-15C, I do use AWACS calls for nearest bandits but when merged in the mountains it is not very useful.

 

I think I am gonna practice managing them by flying the mission from a stand off position and seeing what the heck it is they do. Back to work I guess :pilotfly:

 

 

 

Hey G,

 

The reply was ment more as an in general kind of comment. You are right that Lock ON! does not support that option for the NATO side.

 

Do you assign your flight target objectives via the mission editor?

[GTengineer]

Hey G,

 

The reply was ment more as an in general kind of comment. You are right that Lock ON! does not support that option for the NATO side.

 

Do you assign your flight target objectives via the mission editor?

 

I try to fly the missions "blind" or as a pilot would in real life, so I don't look at the aircraft threats on the map, except for known SAM site locations which is not too far fetched so I can stay away. I just don't like knowing that once I hit waypoint 3 a flight of Mig-25 will be sent up to come after me so I deal with the situation as it comes along. I think this way it is more fun but I suppose it is not very productive in LOMAC.

[RedTiger]

I try to fly the missions "blind" or as a pilot would in real life, so I don't look at the aircraft threats on the map, except for known SAM site locations which is not too far fetched so I can stay away. I just don't like knowing that once I hit waypoint 3 a flight of Mig-25 will be sent up to come after me so I deal with the situation as it comes along. I think this way it is more fun but I suppose it is not very productive in LOMAC.

 

You can get creative with the amount of information you know. In reality, a pilot isn't flying totally blind. Yes, knowing that every flight you make will encounter MiG-25s isn't realistic, but knowing that 1. A certain airbase is home to a MiG-25 squadron on GAI and 2. Your mission is to fly right into their home territory to establish superiority for bombers is not unrealistic at all. Then it just comes down to how many times you want to into the same air space in the same mission. In reality there is often more intelligence and less spontaneity than people realize.

 

Its a shame that LMR doesn't work for you. I don't even know if the original creator is even around anymore. Send me a PM with the specifics and I'll see what you are doing. The instructions provided with LMR leave a bit to be desired. I had to try a few times before I got the hang of what to do.

Edited August 8, 2008 by RedTiger

[Highwayman-Ed]

knowing that every flight you make will encounter MiG-25s isn't realistic, but knowing that 1. A certain airbase is home to a MiG-25 squadron on GAI and 2. Your mission is to fly right into their home territory to establish superiority for bombers is not unrealistic at all. Then it just comes down to how many times you want to into the same air space in the same mission. In reality there is often more intelligence and less spontaneity than people realize.

 

That may be relatively true at the beggining of a conflict, or in a conflict in which you are vastly superior to your enemy, but in a large scale conflict with relatively equal balance between the two sides, don't count on your intelligence being that good after a few weeks.

 

You're also very unlikely know the number of serviceable airframes at a particular airfiled, the interval in which they can get into the air, and exactly what weapons they will be carrying when they get airbourne.

 

I know I'm nit picking here, but after designing many missions myself I know exactly how much the element of surprise is needed to make a mission more interesting.

[RedTiger]

That may be relatively true at the beggining of a conflict, or in a conflict in which you are vastly superior to your enemy, but in a large scale conflict with relatively equal balance between the two sides, don't count on your intelligence being that good after a few weeks

 

If there is still an enemy air force left after "a few weeks", then you're doing it wrong. ;) Seriously...if you haven't gained air superiority by that time chances are you've either already lost or you're fighting in WWIII.

 

LOMAC's strength is in low-intensity, limited objective warfare. And that is the strength I like to play to. I'd even give my hypothesis that ANY mission editor is probably best going to be used for limited warfare. Either that or you try to make a "bubble" within which all-out WWIII is raging and disguise the limited nature of the mission. I tend to just focus on the limited stuff. :)

 

I'll give you a point on the other things you mentioned. Maybe I'm just too optimistic about the capabilities of satellites and modern intelligence. :dunno:

Edited August 9, 2008 by RedTiger
I spell bad

[GTengineer]

Its a shame that LMR doesn't work for you. I don't even know if the original creator is even around anymore. Send me a PM with the specifics and I'll see what you are doing. The instructions provided with LMR leave a bit to be desired. I had to try a few times before I got the hang of what to do.

 

This is the error I get when I try to open (...) Select source file, and the choose DEMO_LOCKED.lmr

 

I installed NET framework and installed LMR to:

D:\Program Files (x86)\Ubisoft\Eagle Dynamics\Lock On\ <<---- This is where my actual game is also installed

 

My main partition however is C:\ ... I read that the default location must be C:\Program Files\Ubisoft\Eagle Dynamics\Lock On\ or if different the path much be edited in some .DAT file. However I was not able to find such file anywhere.

Edited August 9, 2008 by GTengineer

[RedTiger]

This is the error I get when I try to open (...) Select source file, and the choose DEMO_LOCKED.lmr

 

I installed NET framework and installed LMR to:

D:\Program Files (x86)\Ubisoft\Eagle Dynamics\Lock On\ <<---- This is where my actual game is also installed

 

My main partition however is C:\ ... I read that the default location must be C:\Program Files\Ubisoft\Eagle Dynamics\Lock On\ or if different the path much be edited in some .DAT file. However I was not able to find such file anywhere.

 

Hmm...I can't try out that particular mission right at the moment, but I never tried any of the demo missions in the first place. I just set up my own simple mission following the instructions. I'd suggest giving that a try and see what happens. Maybe the included mission is corrupt or doesn't like some setting your version of the game.

 

As for your different partition and DAT file, not sure about that. I do know that the randomizer is relying on things to be set to the default to work properly. Let me look a bit further.

Edited August 9, 2008 by RedTiger

[GTengineer]

If there is still an enemy air force left after "a few weeks", then you're doing it wrong. ;) Seriously...if you haven't gained air superiority by that time chances are you've either already lost or you're fighting in WWIII.

 

LOMAC's strength is in low-intensity, limited objective warfare. And that is the strength I like to play to. I'd even give my hypothesis that ANY mission editor is probably best going used for limited warfare. Either that our you try to make a "bubble" within which all-out WWIII is raging and disguise the limited nature of the mission. I tend to just focus on the limited stuff. :)

 

I'll give you a point on the other things you mentioned. Maybe I'm just too optimistic about the capabilities of satellites and modern intelligence. :dunno:

 

I agree with both of you guys, there are too many limitations and AI needs too much micromanagement to make any sophisticated mission realistic. These complex missions put way too much burden on yourself at least as an F-15C driver (cant speak of Russian aircraft).

 

The F-15C scramble mission that comes with the game for example puts your 4 x F15 up against 2 x Su-30, 2 x Su-34, and 4 x Su-24M. Shooting down a single Su-30 would probably be the kill of a pilot's lifetime. Yet a lot of times missions are stacked with enemy planes because mission builders think it is more fun to have an all out Star Wars engagement, which highly favor enemy AI since they always know where you are and pilot workload is not modeled for them. This mission *might* have been possible if the AI was competent since the Su-24M are carrying only 2 short range missiles each. But the AI completely ignores the threat that each bandit represents.

[RedTiger]

 

The F-15C scramble mission that comes with the game for example puts your 4 x F15 up against 2 x Su-30, 2 x Su-34, and 4 x Su-24M. Shooting down a single Su-30 would probably be the kill of a pilot's lifetime. Yet a lot of times missions are stacked with enemy planes because mission builders think it is more fun to have an all out Star Wars engagement, which highly favor enemy AI since they always know where you are and pilot workload is not modeled for them. This mission *might* have been possible if the AI was competent since the Su-24M are carrying only 2 short range missiles each. But the AI completely ignores the threat that each bandit represents.

 

Jesus Christ!? That's what you were up against? That would be probably be cake if you had 4 humans in the F-15s. Trying to coerce FOUR AI wingmen into surviving that clusterf*ck is beyond my meager ability.

 

Yeah...if that was my first exposure to LOMAC, I'd probably hate it too. :D

 

As for the F-15 vs. Russian jet experience, just do a few searches and you'll find out soon enough. LOMAC has a lot of quirks in it that make life for the F-15 hell. The simplistic way ECM is modeled, the craptacular Aim-120 performance, the "realistic" blackout model making turn fighting at 400+ knots difficult, the crappy handling planes have at 40k feet and above, etc. all count against the F-15. In the hands of a skilled pilot with a lot of experience with it, some of this can be made up for. The Russian aircraft, as modeled in LOMAC, are much more noob friendly. I'd suggest flying the Su-27 first.

Edited August 9, 2008 by RedTiger

[GTengineer]

Jesus Christ!?

 

LOL yes that's what I say as I am flying it.

 

As for the F-15 vs. Russian jet experience, just do a few searches and you'll find out soon enough. LOMAC has a lot of quirks in it that make life for the F-15 hell. The simplistic way ECM is modeled, the craptacular Aim-120 performance, the "realistic" blackout model making turn fighting at 400+ knots difficult, the crappy handling planes have at 40k feet and above, etc. all count against the F-15. In the hands of a skilled pilot with a lot of experience with it, some of this can be made up for. The Russian aircraft, as modeled in LOMAC, are much more noob friendly. I'd suggest flying the Su-27 first.

 

Yeah, I am starting to realize all these things unfortunately. I hope they get all these things taken care of if the F-15 module ever makes it to DCS.

 

P.S. still working on LMR lol