Keyboard Command Layout

[SwingKid]

Oh, yes. There are shortcuts in F4 but the advantage of a Lesser AI is that you can discard most of the menus.

 

That's some pretty good "making lemonade out of lemons" there. :lol:

 

Special Needs Menu

...

In a SU-33 you'd hit it, and the menu would come up with

1 Wing folds

2 Landing Hooks

3 IFF

...

An event happens and you need to respond.

That's where you draw the line - In your testing, if you do an action closer than X(10, 20, etc.) seconds apart, it's a candidate for key-combo

If a Response is required in under X seconds, it's a candidate for key-combo. Otherwise Menu is a certain possibility.

 

I think you may be overlooking that one advantage of key-combos, in addition to quick access, is easier reprogrammability. More than F4, Lock On takes pains to be friendly to home cockpit builders, who would like to be able to control the aircraft with as realistic controls as possible (i.e. ideally, no keyboard). Menus are a bit more tolerable for communicating with AI because switches for that don't exist in a real cockpit. But for something like landing hook or IFF, I think we should let the user re-map this function wherever desired, and that's easiest when it has a dedicated key-combo, even an inaccessible one. You never know what individual aircraft "special needs" people will want to map to their joystick buttons instead of navigating a UI, however smooth, so it's good to set as much dedicated space aside as possible.

 

The "Home" key evolved from a "Return to base immediately" command, to be used in the "emergency situation" when a wingman reports being low on fuel. The primary "go to tanker" function was added later, when I tried to make this key have multiple easily-accessible functions by repeated presses (like the "E" key in F4, but without menus). "Go to tanker/Land immediately at home base/Land immediately at nearest base" seemed like a reasonable arrangement for overriding the previous keypress. I just didn't want to have the user have to fiddle with menus if he gets an "I'm low on fuel!" call in the middle of combat.

 

Another idea: how about if instead of separate menu keys, the first press of the "radio comms" key brings up a wingman menu, the second brings up an element menu, the third brings up the flight menu, the fourth FAC, the fifth AWACS, the sixth tower? That way only one keypress is needed to get into the wingman menu, as you wished, as if it had its own dedicated shortcut. The element, flight, AWACS etc. are less accessible, but at least as you pointed out pressing the same key again isn't too hard, and if you miss the desired menu it's easy to cycle back. Do you think that would work?

 

-SK

[ZoomBoy27]

one advantage of key-combos is easier reprogrammability. More than F4, Lock On takes pains to be friendly to home cockpit builders

 

Glad you reminded me about the need for reprogrammability.

But there is the option for you to have both the menu and the reprogrammability. We can have that for the new user and the reprogramming pro. People will be able to program in the menu options - they are keystrokes after all. Why exclude the possibility?

 

The "Home" key evolved from a "Return to base immediately" command, to be used in the "emergency situation" when a wingman reports being low on fuel .... I just didn't want to have the user have to fiddle with menus if he gets an "I'm low on fuel!" call in the middle of combat.

 

There's a case to be be made that the AI should be able to decide for itself when it needs to get refueled.

But simpler than that, set the Fuel Warning to a sooner figure so that it's not a dire emergency.

Each decision you'd use up a key-combo has to be examined especially if there are all these special needs keys.

 

Another idea: how about if instead of separate menu keys, the first press of the "radio comms" key brings up a wingman menu, the second brings up an element menu, the third brings up the flight menu, the fourth FAC, the fifth AWACS, the sixth tower? That way only one keypress is needed to get into the wingman menu, as you wished, as if it had its own dedicated shortcut. The element, flight, AWACS etc. are less accessible, but at least as you pointed out pressing the same key again isn't too hard, and if you miss the desired menu it's easy to cycle back. Do you think that would work?

-SK

 

The Key-cycling through wing, element, and flight is workable.

On the AWACS/TOWER/FAC I might compress it onto one menu. Currently there are only 3 options in Tower and 4 in AWACS. You might want to put them into 2 different colours. You might lose the feeling of talking to separate parties. But AWACS/Tower/FAC can use different voices to respond to you.

Or you can have 2 keys

- 1 for Wingman Element and Flight (and maybe Emergency Help Key-Combos as I suggested before)

- another for AWACS/Tower/FAC

 

These are some options. If we have a limited sim - 1 key might be doable. But for any sim with expanding AI - 2 keys would be necessary. You still can use the CTRL, SHIFT, and ALT combinations on those keys.

 

Another pattern to look at would be to choose the action and then apply it to the flight type

1st Menu

--- Rejoin

--- RTB

--- Radar Off

--- Weapons Free

 

2nd Submenu after you've chosen "Rejoin" for example

--- Wingman

--- Element 2

--- Wingman 2

--- Wingman 3

--- Wingman 4

 

I've never seen this before (KEY_X, KEY_ACTION, KEY_FORMATION )

and I don't think it's smooth as the Key-cycling (KEY_X, KEY_X, KEY_ACTION)

We might be back to where we were before with hunting around for different keys. I wouldn't accept it but it's something to mull.

 

how the AI handles things in a 4-plane flight

So far we've discussed Elements as if they are part of working AI. In F4, Element AI works like this: Pilot4 will be the wingman to Pilot3 and they will work together with Pilot4 guarding Pilot3 and using tactics together. Tactically, you cannot peel off a single pilot of the flight to do a job. It would be a suicide task without a wingman to cover.

 

In LOMAC I don't think that is true:

Currently I can choose Pilot4 to do a task all by himself. In fact I've got a choice of 3 pilots - that may be too much.

 

Without real Element AI implemented in the sim,

I can choose a simplified tactical menu -

Wingman, Flight, AWACS et al

 

Or if I want the full control menu -

Wingman, Flight, Pilot3, Pilot4, AWACS et al

 

Where are we at with AI and what it can handle?

[SwingKid]

Glad you reminded me about the need for reprogrammability.

But there is the option for you to have both the menu and the reprogrammability. We can have that for the new user and the reprogramming pro. People will be able to program in the menu options - they are keystrokes after all. Why exclude the possibility?

 

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by programming the menu options. When the home cockpit builder is done with them, they may not be keystrokes anymore - they may be HOTAS buttons, a home-built control panel, or even a voice recognition system running on a second computer. I'd like to ensure there's one way to use on-screen menus, and another way to avoid them, as there is right now in Lock On.

 

There's a case to be be made that the AI should be able to decide for itself when it needs to get refueled.

But simpler than that, set the Fuel Warning to a sooner figure so that it's not a dire emergency.

 

"Should be" is the operative phrase. :) I've seen AI decide this five minutes after takeoff, a few seconds before getting in range of the target, or in the middle of a dogfight, where they just go into a trance, turn on their landing lights, decelerate to 300 km/h and get shot down. All my wingman short-cuts are basically "shut-up" keys - i.e. yes you can, no you can't, that have arisen from frustration with AI wingmen. It's not so much a motivation to do more with them as it is to just help keep them alive despite themselves. See below.

 

In LOMAC I don't think that is true:

Currently I can choose Pilot4 to do a task all by himself. In fact I've got a choice of 3 pilots - that may be too much.

 

LOMAC indeed has its own quirks, but I think individual control could have its role to play even with good AI. Let's say you're on a SEAD mission with three wingmen carrying standoff ARMs that have limited hit probability. If you command multiple wingmen into the attack at once, they might shoot simultaneously, using two to six ARMs against one radar when only one might be necessary. If you send them in one at a time, you can stop sending them when the first ARM hits, and save the other wingmens' weapons for a different target. OTOH you might also want to send all the wingmen at once, to saturate the defenses of say, a well-defended ship. I think the more decisions we put in the hands of the user (including when and when not to let wingmen refuel), the better the game will be. Making personal operational decisions to override default behavior has an immersive "pull-you-in" effect. At the same time, implementing such decisions needs to be as effort-free as possible.

 

Where are we at with AI and what it can handle?

 

Good question. I would say that in general, we're "on the move" - the AI is constantly evolving, and may even change dramatically in the future. It would be as unwise to get too attached to a certain mode of current AI behavior as it would to try to anticipate what it might do in future versions. This is why I'm most interested in "yes/no" wingie controls instead of more specific commands like "break left" - the user can authorize or override the AI's own programmed behaviour whatever it may exactly be, and I think such control would have the most longevity in future versions. I might feel differently if AI behavior becomes a lot more intuitive, but right now I base judgement on:

 

http://206.116.70.212:8811/board/index.php?a=topic&t=32

 

-SK

[ZoomBoy27]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by programming the menu options. When the home cockpit builder is done with them, they may not be keystrokes anymore - they may be HOTAS buttons, a home-built control panel, or even a voice recognition system running on a second computer. I'd like to ensure there's one way to use on-screen menus, and another way to avoid them, as there is right now in Lock On.

What does the current home cockpit builder interact now with menues?

Does he by-pass them altogether?

If the home cockpit builder can bypass menues, we can concentrate on the new user?

There's a case to be be made that the AI should be able to decide for itself when it needs to get refueled.

But simpler than that, set the Fuel Warning to a sooner figure so that it's not a dire emergency.

As we can't seem to change the smallest bit of the AI to suit our Comm Menu needs, we need to count & prioritize the shape of the Comms Menu.

What action or response is a suitable menu option?

What action or response would be suitable as an emergency or convenient key-combo?

You seem reluctant to do any non-COMMS menu items

 

Inferior AI only means less options needed and menues can be flattened.

You also wanted to control each plane separately and quickly.

 

The only choice for the full control menu for Flight, Wingman, Pilot3, Pilot4, AWACS with one key is:

When you hit KEY_X, the suggested Flight Menu(urgent) would be

(1st & Urgent Menu)

F1 - Engage My Target

F2 - Rejoin

F3 - Cover Me

F4 - Jettison Weapons

F5 - Radar TOGGLE*

F6 - ECM TOGGLE*

F7 - Smoke TOGGLE*

F8 - Engage...

F9 - Formation...

F10 - Go Pincer...

F11 - Vector to...

 

Those Items with "..." after them have just 1 Sub-Menu

TOGGLE* - I mean that if the Radar is on, the Menu item will say "RADAR ON" If the RADAR is off, the Menu item will say "RADAR OFF" The same type of Toggle is used for ECM and Smoke. The cool aspect is that new user can see if the Radar, ECM, and Smoke is on

 

An alternative - very tightly squeezed - is:

(1st & Urgent Menu)

F1 - Engage My Target

F2 - Rejoin

F3 - Cover Me

F4 - Jettison Weapons

F5 - Engage...

F6 - Go Pincer/Formation... (9 Pincer + Formation options in Different colours)

F7 - Radar/ECM/Smoke.. (showing the necessary TOGGLE*)

F8 - Vector to...

 

Each of Flight, Wingman, Pilot3, Pilot4 will have their top menu as above as you flip through it with KEY_X

 

For a Wingman to go Pincer High is => KEY_X, KEY_X, KEY_F6, KEY_F1

All the above is based on having only 1 Key to do the cycling.

Not so quickly getting to what we want; we searched for 2 Keys - KEY_F6, KEY_F1

 

With 4 Keys - A key each for Flight, Wingman, Pilot3, Pilot4 - you have:

With Submenus as above:

For a Wingman to go Pincer High is => KEY_W, KEY_F6, KEY_F1

 

WithOUT Submenus as above - each menu is different:

Menu Urgent

Menu Engage Various

Menu Formation

Menu Go Pincer

Menu Vector

Menu Radar/ECM

 

For a Wingman to go Pincer High is => KEY_W, KEY_W, KEY_W, KEY_W, KEY_F1 - Quickly getting to what we want by only Searching for 1 Key - KEY_F1

 

Summary:

With only one key to activate, we can rapidly flip through the type of wingman orders - Flight, Wingman, Pilot3, Pilot4 and possibly AWACS+Tower. The user will become more familiar with the menu options. But we lose flow by having to search for a submenu before we do an action.

It is better than the current situation when each keystroke is a search for a submenu. Very klunky and it draws you out of the sim much more.

 

With 4 keys(Flight, Wingman, Pilot3, Pilot4 and possibly AWACS+Tower) we need to search for no keys except the final action. But we sacrifice 2-3 keys. We do however get to keep the ALT, CTRL, & SHIFT options on the keys used.

 

There is no F11 or F12 to go back. Just ESCape to get out of the Menuing system altogether.

You will decide on the Urgent Menu items and shift them around.

But it clears the Comms units of a difficult extra level of key-searching.

 

=================================================

The following is the Full list available now in the Comms menu in LOMAC

Engage - My Target, My Enemy, Bandits, Air Defences, Ground targets, Naval targets, Do Mission & Return, Do Mission and RTB

Go Pincer - High, Low, Left, Right

Vector to - Airfield, Tanker, Waypoint

Radar - On/Off

ECM - On/Off

Smoke - On/Off

Cover Me

Jettison Weapons

Formation - Rejoin, Line-Abreast, Trail, Echelon, Close, Open

[MBot]

I haven't read the whole topic in depth, but I saw some good suggestions in it.

I would like to comment the subject of the communication menu, as this holds special interest for me. Falcon 4 realy had a geniously designed comms menu. 5 Buttons in a row for easy and fast selection of who you want to talk to. Then very fast browsing trough the different pages by pressing the same key multiple times. And last your selection by numbers in the row directly above. You could give the most complex wingman commands by just using two different keys on the same area on your keyboard. I have never seen such a fluid and intuitive comms menu. I never used a single comms hotkey in Falcon 4, because the menu itself was so good.

 

This of course comes for the price of 5 "high value" keys, but I think it is well worth it. Especially if future ED sims put much more embassy on wingman, Awacs, FAC and ATC interaction. If done right, communication with your FAC will be as important as selecting your bombs anyway.

[SwingKid]

What does the current home cockpit builder interact now with menues?

Does he by-pass them altogether?

If the home cockpit builder can bypass menues, we can concentrate on the new user?

 

We should ask some home cockpit builders to be sure. I don't mind focusing on new users, as long as we don't take away existing features. And we should be sure to get a few more opinions. When I proposed changes to the padlock system that I thought were quite sensible, I was surprised by the amount of controversy and conflicting opinions:

 

http://forum.lockon.ru/viewtopic.php?t=2270

 

As we can't seem to change the smallest bit of the AI to suit our Comm Menu needs, we need to count & prioritize the shape of the Comms Menu.

What action or response is a suitable menu option?

What action or response would be suitable as an emergency or convenient key-combo?

 

Agreed... This is what we're doing now, right?

The functions I have mapped to Insert, Delete, Home and End are all already present in v1.02, I just moved them back to their Flanker 2.0 positions so that "[" and "]" could be used to control a new helicopter axis for v1.2. I think these shortcuts were completely replaced by the menu system in v1.01 and returned in v1.02 because it was deemed a mistake. If we replace them with menus again, I'm concerned about raising more problems like the padlock thread.

 

The proposals I would be most interested in debating, are the "Pageup" and "PageDown" shortcuts. When flying, I found many situations when my wingman would employ radar, ECM or afterburner to the detriment of the mission, and thought a pair of general-purpose "Quiet Down" (page down) or "Light Up (page up) keys would be helpful. For example, when building missions that start in the air, I would sometimes start the player's flight off moving in the opposite direction of the target, just so the player would have time to navigate the menus to turn off wingman's radars before turning into the target to attempt a "stealthy" attack with AWACS or IRST guidance. AI can detect radar emissions instantly and switch into an omniscient "intercept mode" that I often wanted to avoid triggering, but starting the player flight off flying in the wrong direction seemed to confuse some players at the start of my missions.

 

You seem reluctant to do any non-COMMS menu items

 

Yeah, pretty reluctant... I proposed putting program controls like "Easy landings" and "Auto lock on" into its own menu system to free up more space, and could also see things like "Respawn" and "Jump into different aircraft cockpit" done this way. But aircraft controls strike me as a very odd thing to put on a menu - I've never seen this before in a sim. I was a little surprised by th suggestion to put the "IFF interrogate" function into a menu - this is a classic HOTAS button if ever there was one: you've got something locked up, ready to shoot...?? This was one I didn't think I would have to defend.

 

There's also a crowd of enthusiasts that are into "ramp start" and clickable cockpits to consider. I don't personally belong to it and wouldn't mind putting things like "open canopy," "start left engine" and "set altimeter" into a menu system, but something tells me that would feel like we were missing the point. ED is thinking of moving toward clickable cockpits in the future, and most clickable switches need a keyboard backup. If you're one of those who doesn't feel it's "realistic" to move a mouse pointer around the screen to click things, then reading menus that float in the cockpit usually isn't a much preferable alternative.

 

In addition to access time, programmability, and the precedent set by other sims, another issue is that menus need to be localized (and spelled correctly) for the language of the user. (I'll never forget the "Go SEED" menu :) ) Keyboard controls are much less work for both the programmer and the beta-tester, two other entities I'd like to cater to. As you've already observed, a menu system can be made well, or it can be made awkward. Key commands are less of a gamble in that regard.

 

Another thing to keep in mind is that the goal of this proposal for the moment is to reserve keys. Even if ED adds new menu architectures for different controls, my interest in them right now only goes so far as deciding how many and which keys need to be reserved to access them. The urgency is to get the AI programmer started on the AI, the avionics programmer on the avionics, etc. ASAP. The precise details of the user interface, e.g. which menu options whill appear in which layers, don't affect so many programmers. (Don't worry I'll be very interested in this later down the road, but soon I'd like to move on to view controls - there's still a lot of work to be done there too.)

 

You mentioned earlier you don't think F4's five or six keys would be necessary for the menu architectures. May I ask how many you think would be needed? Maybe we can rearrange the proposal to open up more space, without replacing the shortcuts keys. Some keys are under-utilized and could be grouped together, and the "P" key is still unassigned.

 

Another idea - what if the aircraft has two cockpits? How many keys should we reserve to handle that situation? Would jumping between cockpits be better as an on-screen menu function?

 

Cheers,

 

-SK

[SwingKid]

Hmm... Do you think three keys would be enough for a similar system?

 

I think we could remap Q "Mission Goals" elsewhere to free it up for a combined "Query" AWACS/GCI/FAC menu,

"W" (change weapon) could be moved to "P" (change pylon) for a combined "Wingmen" Wingman/Element2/Flight menu,

I'd like to keep "E" for ECM and "R" for radar/RWR,

but "T" for wingtip smoke could be de-prioritized to make room for "Tower".

 

I also like the idea of using the nearer "1234" for menu selections instead of "F1 F2 F3 F4".

 

Does anyone have a link to a Jane's F/A-18 keycard?

 

What were the F4 hotkeys?

 

-SK

[ZoomBoy27]

I sent you a PM with details about where to find F4 Commands

 

SP3 Falcon4 Key card and Commands List - In PDF form

There is also the original F4 command list as well - in .BMP format

[ZoomBoy27]

The proposals I would be most interested in debating, are the "Pageup" and "PageDown" shortcuts. When flying, I found many situations when my wingman would employ radar, ECM or afterburner

I think afterburner use can be on a submenu. The wingman using AB for the extra time it takes to menu switch is not going to make a difference.

RADAR?ECM is very different

 

If the radar needs to be turned off, can it be done before the mission starts?

In my testing I had not started a mission, but was waiting on the runway and could access the Comms Menu. But I don't remember getting any responses

 

If the menu system Functions before MIssion Start(before we hit the S key), you can put QUIET RADAR/ECM in a Comms menu.

Preferably Flight|Quiet

 

It's that instant AI Intercept-On thing I'm concerned about.

With even QUIET key short-cut, you can't do it in time.

That's a flaw that the programmers have to deal with and can't be solved on the Comms.

They can either make Comms Menus Functional before mission start or put a delay on that Instant AI Intercept-on.

 

Another idea - what if the aircraft has two cockpits? How many keys should we reserve to handle that situation? Would jumping between cockpits be better as an on-screen menu function?

Key Short-cut.

When you hop to another position, it's usually at a critical time - you want to see something or do something.

When you're normally flying along, your SA is usually good enough in 1 seat.

[MBot]

A crazy idea about the comms. How about having channels instead of AWACS/FAC/tower menus.

 

Lets say you tune radio channel one for Adler tower frequency. Then you hear all the radio communication on Adler tower channel. If you want to say something you press the 'broadcast on channel one' key ( lets say Q ). Now you only have the comm options for tower in your list.

 

Then lets say you depart tower and change channel one for the AWACS frequency. Now you press 'Q' and get the AWACS menu. The menu displays commands depending on the frequency your radio has set.

 

To communicate with your flight I suggest the use of 3 keys, one for wingman, element and flight each. This system is much faster and smoother than the "tree-system" from lomac or JF-18.

 

 

So my perfect comms menu would be ( using the Falcon 4 system ):

 

Q - Use Radio ( depending on set frequency )

W- Wingman

E - Element

R - Flight

 

 

4 keys for comms might sound like waste, but if the comms get complex one day it will be worth it.

 

Of course there would be the need for additional functions to operate the radio itselfe. Like:

 

-"enter frequency for channel one"

-"enter freq for channel two"

-"switch channel"

 

But these could be shift or ctrl combinations as these wouldn't need to be accessible quickly.

[ZoomBoy27]

I also like the idea of using the nearer "1234" for menu selections instead of "F1 F2 F3 F4".

-SK

Agreed - highest priority to the 1,2,3,4 keys in the menu choices.

 

Hmm... Do you think three keys would be enough for a similar system?

 

I think we could remap Q "Mission Goals" elsewhere to free it up for a combined "Query" AWACS/GCI/FAC menu,

"W" (change weapon) could be moved to "P" (change pylon) for a combined "Wingmen" Wingman/Element2/Flight menu,

I'd like to keep "E" for ECM and "R" for radar/RWR,

but "T" for wingtip smoke could be de-prioritized to make room for "Tower".

 

Tower:

I'm tempted to combine Query with Tower

Tower is the lowest priority comms and an extra key-cycle is not too bad.

But T is acceptable if we are going to get ANY really complicated AWACS/FAC activity. But right now it's a joke with only 4 AWACS commands.

 

Elements:

Currently I do not see any Element AI used. In the current LOMAC version it would just be > Wingman/Flight Menues

 

Individual Pilots:

There is also the Need to dealing with Pilots individually:

KEY_Q - AWACS/FAC/TOWER menues

KEY_W - Flight/ Wingman/Pilot3/Pilot4 menues(containing QUIET commands)

 

or maybe

 

KEY_Q - AWACS/FAC/TOWER menues

KEY_W - Flight/Wingman menues(containing QUIET commands)

KEY_E - Pilot3/Pilot4 menues(containing QUIET commands)

 

If we have Element AI in the future, an extra key is needed not optional

KEY_Q - AWACS/FAC/TOWER menues

KEY_W - Flight/Wingman menues(better to silence the whole flight) or Wingman/Flight

KEY_E - Element2/Pilot3/Pilot4 menues

 

For safety's sake, we should move ECM to 'J' for Jamming

 

Exiting The Comms

To Exit all menues/menu mode, hit ESC

It's easier to Cycle back in with Q,W,E than to search for the Backout keys F11 or F12

 

Though our pathways are different, We've decided to at least preserve QW for comms. I think mine better handles the Pilot 3 and 4 situation.

But for full expandibility, the 'E' should be kept available.

So your choice is QWT

I'm QWE with a possible QWET in a complex AWACS

 

 

------------------

In the F4 Comms menu there are no Sub-Menues - the smoothest ever.

I think here we've decided the AI is weaker and need more control - therefore 1 Submenu is acceptable and the slight clunkiness is acceptable.

Until we get Element Grouping programmed into the Sim, we have to have submenues.

 

With Elements programmed in we can toally flatten the menues by adding an extra Key

KEY_Q - AWACS/FAC/TOWER menues

KEY_W - Wingman menues(No sub menues)

KEY_E - Flight menues(No sub menues)

KEY_R - Element menus(No sub menues)

 

How easy is it to hook up Element grouping and AI. And is it feasible for ED?

[SwingKid]

So my perfect comms menu would be ( using the Falcon 4 system ):

 

Q - Use Radio ( depending on set frequency )

W- Wingman

E - Element

R - Flight

 

I'm reluctant about that "R" key. ZoomBoy27's suggestion to move "ECM" to "Jammer" might work, but there are so many other things in a modern fighter jet starting with "R" (radar, RWR), it seems unintuitive to assign it to "Flight". That's aggravated by the fact we really need a separate "radar" key from the "optics" key - Falcon 4's F-16 had no IRST so it could dedicate all kinds of keys to radar.

 

How about Q-W-E for Quad-Wingman2-Element2, and T for Talk Tower/AWACS/FAC?

 

Also, how many menu options should we need for FAC? I was considering to access FAC with the "I" key (since its primary IFF function won't do anything in air-to-ground mode), but just as a one-key "direct me to the target" function.

 

-SK

[ZoomBoy27]

How about Q-W-E for Quad-Wingman2-Element2, and T for Talk Tower/AWACS/FAC?

 

That's better than my QWE because it eliminates sub-menues but it does lead to the question -

Is Element Grouping currently feasible? Will it be programmed in?

We would lose direct control of Pilot4. Do we want it? or accept we can't peel off Pilot 4 or 3 by himself to stop doing something or to do a particular job?

[SwingKid]

I think afterburner use can be on a submenu. The wingman using AB for the extra time it takes to menu switch is not going to make a difference.

RADAR?ECM is very different

 

Indeed, restricting afterburner use is less urgent, I just wanted Alt-PageUp and Alt-PageDown to have something assigned to them and that was the best I could think of, in light of the way I proposed PageUp and PageDown in general.

 

It's that instant AI Intercept-On thing I'm concerned about.

With even QUIET key short-cut, you can't do it in time.

That's a flaw that the programmers have to deal with and can't be solved on the Comms.

They can either make Comms Menus Functional before mission start or put a delay on that Instant AI Intercept-on.

 

I'm glad this interests you too.

How about if when the user starts a mission, the AI wingmen don't turn their radars on until 10 seconds into the mission, so the user has some time to give the command? I think AI ground units work something like this already.

 

Another idea - what if the aircraft has two cockpits? How many keys should we reserve to handle that situation? Would jumping between cockpits be better as an on-screen menu function?

Key Short-cut.

When you hop to another position, it's usually at a critical time - you want to see something or do something.

When you're normally flying along, your SA is usually good enough in 1 seat.

 

Maybe this is a good use for the "P" key - "position"? We could have it as a "press-and-hold" glance view function, or pressing Shift-P could snap the player into the other seat more permanently. Ctrl-P and Alt-P could then be used to help the user either control both seats' controls manually, or hand over the other seat's control to an AI autopilot.

 

Haven't thought that one fully through though... Right now I'm working on the other snap/glance views and that's also quite a challenge. Lock On had lots of view controls and I'm trying to "compress" them into less keyboard space, without losing too much.

 

Thanks for interest,

 

-SK

[SwingKid]

Is Element Grouping currently feasible? Will it be programmed in?

We would lose direct control of Pilot4. Do we want it? or accept we can't peel off Pilot 4 or 3 by himself to stop doing something or to do a particular job?

 

Well, if we figure out a good interface it's that much more argument to convince the programmers to give us Element2. 8)

 

We could still retain the proposed shortcut controls for individual wingmen via Shift-Ctl-Alt together with Ins-Del-Hom-End, and when the "W" key is pressed, there could be options for specifying Wingman3 or Wingman4 instead of the default Wingman2. Those options could even disappear from the menu the moment Element2 is sent off to do a task, so the player can't interfere with Wingman3's commands to Wingman4 until Element2 rejoins the player's formation.

 

Details, details... :)

 

-SK

[MBot]

How about Q-W-E for Quad-Wingman2-Element2, and T for Talk Tower/AWACS/FAC?

 

Good suggestion. One thing tough that is worth to think about. What is the more intuitive system, assigning functions to corresponding letters ( R for Radar ) or grouping functions of simmilar nature together.

To problem with the letters is, there are too few of them on a keyboard. Sooner or later you have to assigne functions to letters that don't match. With that in mind I tend to grouping. In the case of the comms I would put all functions next to each other. But I guess everyone has different preferences here.

 

Regarding the Element issue. While it isn't of much use in the moment, I would plan the new key layout with Elements in mind. Somewhen in the future we might be happy we kept that space free :) At least I hope so...

[ZoomBoy27]

We could still retain the proposed shortcut controls for individual wingmen via Shift-Ctl-Alt

-SK

 

Pilot 3 would be CTRL-W

Pilot 4 would be CTRL-E

 

or

 

Pilot 3 would be CTRL-W

Pilot 4 would be CTRL-W CTRL-W

(that Repeating thing again)

and then we'd get the Menus and flip through them with KEY_W

 

Buzz buzz Buzz ... I'll take a break for a bit and look at something else.

[SwingKid]

Pilot 4 would be CTRL-E

 

Just don't ever call him more than twice... :wink:

 

-SK

[SwingKid]

To Exit all menues/menu mode, hit ESC

 

I've been thinking more about this Esc key.

 

I have currently assigned it as a padlock key because it's so near the other view keys, and is so easy to find on the keyboard. But I don't think it's a good idea to have this key do "padlock" some of the time, and an "exit" function at other times. If it's used to exit from menus, people will expect it to exit from the mission as well.

 

Maybe we should reassign the Esc key to be an "Exit mission" function as it is now in Lock On, and move the "missile padlock" function somewhere else - or what do you think? Can we get away with mapping some other function to "Esc", and breaking the trend? Or it's too unintuitive?

 

-SK

[MBot]

Moving any other function than "exit/abort" to the Esc key is a big no-no in my opinion. I have yet to see a programm where Esc does anything else than this and I guess people will find this counter intuitive.

[ZoomBoy27]

Maybe we should reassign the Esc key to be an "Exit mission" function as it is now in Lock On, and move the "missile padlock" function somewhere else - or what do you think? Can we get away with mapping some other function to "Esc", and breaking the trend? Or it's too unintuitive?

-SK

 

One aspect of ESC is its use in Windows to get out of most dialog boxes and also used to Cancel Menus or Uncompleted Actions.

That use of ESC is consistent with a users Windows experience.

Where the padlock goes, I don't know off hand.

[SwingKid]

I'm working on view controls now, and wow, they are very numerous, complicated and spread out in Lock On.

 

Please tell me - on my keyboard, Num Lock changes status when I press "Num Lock", "Shift+Num Lock" or "Alt+Num Lock".

 

If I press "Ctrl-Num Lock", the status doesn't change.

 

If I press Ctrl together with Shift or Alt, and Num Lock, the status also doesn't change.

 

Caps Lock and Scroll Lock behave the same way.

 

A further peculiarity is that if I hold Shift and Alt together, and press Num Lock, it appears to change quickly twice - switching from on to off and then on again. This doesn't happen for Caps Lock or Scroll Lock

 

Does everybody else's keyboard do the same? Or keyboards may be different?

 

-SK

[ZoomBoy27]

Please tell me - on my keyboard, Num Lock changes status when I press "Num Lock", "Shift+Num Lock" or "Alt+Num Lock".

 

If I press "Ctrl-Num Lock", the status doesn't change.

 

If I press Ctrl together with Shift or Alt, and Num Lock, the status also doesn't change.

 

Caps Lock and Scroll Lock behave the same way.

 

A further peculiarity is that if I hold Shift and Alt together, and press Num Lock, it appears to change quickly twice - switching from on to off and then on again. This doesn't happen for Caps Lock or Scroll Lock

 

Does everybody else's keyboard do the same? Or keyboards may be different?

 

-SK

 

The Numlock seems to be the same but my CapsLock appears to be different.

Are you testing this inside LOMAC because a lot of programmers can choose to ignore or check the UP or DOWN states in their game differently than in Windows.

[Vosxod]

Hi SwingKid, thanks for interest in my thread in russian part of forum (http://forum.lockon.ru/showthread.php?t=7948 ). The issue I raised there (again) is related to keyboard, but somewhat different from layout. For the rest of english-speaking oudience here: I was telling that in LO, when you use some key combination like Alt+"1" you are forced to "properly" release keys. You cannot just lift your fingers. You have to release "1" first and then Alt. If you do otherwise the moment you will jave Alt releasen and "1" still pressed LO will generate "1" key function!!! And this I think is completely wrong. In combat situation when you act fast you have no time to think - "hmm now I'm going to accurately release this key combination". Well ED ppl object that in some cases, when key combination is used for some analog action - like numpad keys for view, it makes sence to have current implementation. Example is Numpad4 - move FOV left, Shift+Numpad4 - fast move FOV left. So in this case, they say, it makes sence for user to press Shift+Numpad4 to move fast and then release Shift and still hold Numpad4 to CONTINUE to move slow...

I still think that current implementation is wrong, cause minority of users (and funtions) benefit from it and majoprity suffer "accidental" triggering of some function they dont want to happen ...

Just wanted to share my concerns. Sorry for long post :)

 

PS. 2 SwingKid: where in Toronto do you leave? I leave here too, maybe we can fly together LO online sometime...

[ZoomBoy27]

That really depends on the method in which the majority of use the Alt key.

I hit ALT first with my thumb, hold it down, and then I search for the other key with my index finger. I then tap and hold the other key and then release the other key.

This has certainly been the case for me for LOMAC in the months I've been flying - even more now either the FC1.1 auto-pilot modes.

 

The crucial point is - does my method represent the majority of users? If that is the case, it's good to warn people to use that method.

We already train them to use keys in so many different ways.

 

EDIT:

After reviewing my key use, I remember that I have that problem with the Shkval/Laser Designator. Sometimes I go to turn the Laser on but then I with Shift-O but then hit O accidentally which :eek: turns off my Shval and requires me to turn it on, re-acquire and lock-on and then turn the designator again.

 

I think with ALT at the bottom of the keyboard and having to stretch up, the current method is reasonable.

 

But with SHIFT it might be a different case because it's not at the bottom of the keyboard.