A-29B Super Tucano: Flight Model Test

[Doc3908]

I finally got around to downloading and trying out the new A-29B that everyone's been going bonkers over. Well... there are things I like about the new Super Tucano, and there are things I don't like very much... As with most models, I put the A-29B through its paces to see what her limits are. I found some really weird behaviors. Yes, I know the A-29B has the SFM, but so do many other aircraft in DCS and I've never seen quirks like this.

 

This video is not intended as a criticism, but rather as an attempt to help the developers identify the issues and address them in one of their next releases. I have nothing but respect for the developers' hard work and talent. Keep up the good work, you guys!

 

 

[Doc3908]

To continue testing the Super Tucano's flight model by staging a simple dogfight with the beautifully done A-4E mod. The outcome confirmed what I already expected - the A-29's FM needs a lot of tweaking before it becomes even somewhat believable (yes, I know it's the SFM...).

 

 

 

[Doc3908]

For the final test - just for kicks and giggles - I flew the little A-29B against the most maneuverable mod in DCS - the Su-57 (whose FM is quite questionable as well). The Su-57 can outmaneuver just about anything in DCS... except the little Super Tucano. LoL!   

 

 

[Rick50]

LOL !!!

 

Ok the first video, I think ALL of those shortcommings are entirely resting upon the limitations of the SFM and nothing else. I doubt very much the mod team could improve upon the way the SFM behaves, I think that's out of their control. I think the longer term solution is to try to see if they can upgrade to one of the more complex fight models, but I don't really know how doable that would be for a volunteer freeware team. Can anyone chime in on that, whether such an upgrade is possible?

 

The dogfighting is pretty funny! But at the same time, it's of limited realism. First, the Skyhawk choice is a good one in that it's a somewhat realistic possible example of a very real threat to the Tucano. But... it appears as if the pilot in the A-4 is an AI, rather than a human online pilot. I suspect that a human opponent would have much different results. I think if you were going against a human online A-4, he'd probably give you no more than 10% of the opportunity to have him in your HUD, and even less opportunity to make your .50cals actually connect. Consider that you'd only have about 1/3 of the firepower of a good American warbird of the distant past (2 50's instead of 6 like the Mustang or Corsair, or even 8 like the Razorback), you'd need to get luckier than the aces of the distant past.

 

 

The Su-57 mod, well, I believe it too suffers from the limitations of the SFM itself, and is clearly an AI with all the limitations that brings. Having seen other vids (Growling Sidewinder's Su-57 dogfight for example) shows that a human pilot with that mod would be a MUCH more dangerous opponent, and I doubt you'd even get a single opportunity to even shoot your .50cals at him.  And that's just using the SFM of the SU-57 mod, the real jet would be even more dangerous in a guns-only fight, which itself is not all that likely, considering the missiles, stealth, datalinks and real aerodynamic maneuverability, not to mention the ability to work as a team with other Russian aircraft, the competency of frontline pilots in such jets and so on. The AI doesn't seem to have anywhere near the competency needed to make use of even 10% of the SU-57's amazing agility in the mod. Consider that the SU-57 mod doesn't even have the ability to model actual thrust vectoring, nor  of the "canards" up front built into the leading edge by the intakes (at least I think that's their function).

 

I know it's just for fun, but it's also kinda stretches some credulity to face off a Tucano with a top 5th Gen fighter... it's not likely to even be in the air in the same continent at the same time! What I mean by this is, if the Felon is out hunting for flying targets, any airforce would ground it's Tucanos right away, maybe even try to hide them in a HAS bunker!  But it's all good, partly having fun, partly seeing a "what if" scenario is cool too! Limitations of SFM, and the limitations of the AI, but it was entertaining! 

Edited April 20, 2021 by Rick50

[Doc3908]

13 minutes ago, Rick50 said:

LOL !!!

 

Ok the first video, I think ALL of those shortcommings are entirely resting upon the limitations of the SFM and nothing else. I doubt very much the mod team could improve upon the way the SFM behaves, I think that's out of their control. I think the longer term solution is to try to see if they can upgrade to one of the more complex fight models, but I don't really know how doable that would be for a volunteer freeware team. Can anyone chime in on that, whether such an upgrade is possible?

 

The dogfighting is pretty funny! But at the same time, it's of limited realism. First, the Skyhawk choice is a good one in that it's a somewhat realistic possible example of a very real threat to the Tucano. But... it appears as if the pilot in the A-4 is an AI, rather than a human online pilot. I suspect that a human opponent would have much different results. I think if you were going against a human online A-4, he'd probably give you no more than 10% of the opportunity to have him in your HUD, and even less opportunity to make your .50cals actually connect. Consider that you'd only have about 1/3 of the firepower of a good American warbird of the distant past (2 50's instead of 6 like the Mustang or Corsair, or even 8 like the Razorback), you'd need to get luckier than the aces of the distant past.

 

 

The Su-57 mod, well, I believe it too suffers from the limitations of the SFM itself, and is clearly an AI with all the limitations that brings. Having seen other vids (Growling Sidewinder's Su-57 dogfight for example) shows that a human pilot with that mod would be a MUCH more dangerous opponent, and I doubt you'd even get a single opportunity to even shoot your .50cals at him.  And that's just using the SFM of the SU-57 mod, the real jet would be even more dangerous in a guns-only fight, which itself is not all that likely, considering the missiles, stealth, datalinks and real aerodynamic maneuverability, not to mention the ability to work as a team with other Russian aircraft, the competency of frontline pilots in such jets and so on. The AI doesn't seem to have anywhere near the competency needed to make use of even 10% of the SU-57's amazing agility in the mod. Consider that the SU-57 mod doesn't even have the ability to model actual thrust vectoring, nor  of the "canards" up front built into the leading edge by the intakes (at least I think that's their function).

 

I know it's just for fun, but it's also kinda stretches some credulity to face off a Tucano with a top 5th Gen fighter... it's not likely to even be in the air in the same continent at the same time! What I mean by this is, if the Felon is out hunting for flying targets, any airforce would ground it's Tucanos right away, maybe even try to hide them in a HAS bunker!  But it's all good, partly having fun, partly seeing a "what if" scenario is cool too! Limitations of SFM, and the limitations of the AI, but it was entertaining! 

 

 

I totally agree with everything you said!! It's all just in good fun. But the SFM on the Tucano does bother me a little. The old A-4 also had a SFM, but always flew much more believably (though it had some quirks too). Same with the Hercules - I doubt its FM is very realistic, but it feels more "real". The ST, on the other hand, doesn't doesn't give me that feeling of flight. I don't know how to explain it. It's fun to mess around with, but just doesn't click with me. I know that tons of people love it, and I certainly wish the developers nothing but the best. But I'll wait until the ST gets a bit more mature to try it again. 

Cheers!!

[TLTeo]

3 hours ago, Rick50 said:

I think the longer term solution is to try to see if they can upgrade to one of the more complex fight models, but I don't really know how doable that would be for a volunteer freeware team. Can anyone chime in on that, whether such an upgrade is possible?

Both the MB-339 and A-4 released EFMs, so if they ST team have the expertise, it's absolutely doable.

[Rick50]

Hmm, good to know!

[Rick50]

 

It's kinda funny, I think at one point, Doc managed to put seemingly 100 shells into the Felon!  I'm sure that plane can take a few .50cals in a few locations, and not affect teh flight, and probably take a few more in certain locations and still make it to home base for a 2 week repair... but getting 50 to 100 rounds of .50 would likely shred even the biggest, baddest jets!  I'm not all that convinced an A-10 could take that many .50cal / 12.7mm rounds and still be totally ok! 

 

Not saying that .50cal is ideal to shoot down jets, it's very inefficient today when you have 27mm and 30mm autocannons to do the real work, but 50 hits on a fighter jet is STILL 50 perforations in a vehicle that almost always responds badly to any physical damage.

Edited April 20, 2021 by Rick50

[TLTeo]

To quote Nick Grey, CEO of ED, "Our damage modelling sucks, it's an embarrassment" (which is why they are testing the updated one on the WW2 stuff..). And that's for the full fidelity flagship products nevermind some dodgy free mod.