question regarding laser designator

[xhaos]

I hat an interesting conversation today and a question appeared to me. Lasers have problems when it comes to humidity. furthermore in a battlefield with all the dust and smoke and and and, a laser beam will have sometimes hard time to reach its target especially as distance increases. Is this modeled in BS? will the range of missile guidance decrease with humidity? if the flightpath of a missile crosses smoke will the missile loose its guidance since the laser will spread inside the smoke?

[Boberro]

I think Wags mentioned that it isn't modelled at this time.

[GGTharos]

This would be a problem for the laser rangefinder, but not for the Vikhr's guidance lasers unless there was, like you said, smoke. A LOT of smoke. The vikhr is looking back towards the launching heli, not forward for a reflection - also see Boberro's answer :)

[xhaos]

ok but think of this scenario. I will lock a tank, i will follow the procedure and launch my missile. at that point my view will get obscured either by some other object (accidentally i went behind building or other heli flown between or the tank pops his smokes. will i loose my lock? So scenario A something blocks my view of target but before missile reaches what ever blocks.

Scenario B, something blocks my guidance beam, again building helo or what ever.

 

So scenario A something comes between missile and target and scenario B something gets between me and my missile before it reaches.

 

what behaviour should i expect?

[GGTharos]

Admittedly I have tried not to get stuff between me and the helo so I can't answer, but I can tell you this: The tank popping smoke should have almost no effect on vikhr (unless the tank moves).

 

If something gets between missile and target, the missile will hit that - in scenario B, I don't know - I'd expect the missile to drop out of the sky (occluded beam)

[xhaos]

- in scenario B, I don't know - I'd expect the missile to drop out of the sky (occluded beam)

It would be cool to find out;) also what will happen if after 1-2 seconds the lock is reestablished, will it continue to guide or once it broke it cant be recovered.

[GGTharos]

Nope, 1-2 sec = missile out of beam. Physically, and permamently. It goes into a nosedive :)

[Boberro]

So what about Mavericks? If tank smokes itself so much that there is no any visibility, does maverick miss?

[GGTharos]

Not if its an IR maverick ... and IR smoke tends to be a modern thing ;)

[Boberro]

Interesting, tell more about this IR smoke, is it simple flare throwed around tank or something more advanced?

[GGTharos]

No, it's just smoke that is either very hot itself, or absorbs/blocks IR. Special chemical composition.

[Boberro]

So tanks aren't so easy target as I thought before, shrewd vehicles :D

[GGTharos]

No, LOFC makes them too easy. Too close, you can see them easily (you should only be able to spot them from 2-3km usually if they are not moving, not from 15km ;) ) and no real defensive actions.

Edited October 14, 2008 by GGTharos

[xhaos]

No, LOFC makes them too easy. Too close, you can see them easily (you should only be able to spot them from 2-3km usually if they are not moving, from from 15km ;) ) and no real defensive actions.

this sounds a bit strange (or i am reading something wrong)

if a tank is moving it should be easier to spot since it will have smoke, movement etc. if it stationary its camouflage should make it harder to see since its camouflage will be under the wavelength noise.

[GGTharos]

And that is what I wrote :)

[xhaos]

that bring us to a second question. Always in games its harder to eyeball targets because of HW limitation. In real life depending on conditions you can see a fighter plane easily at 8km and even make out some details, at 15km if you are lucky and i remember once this summer i managed to follow with eyes one helicopter even though i was more than 30km away (though it was an orange ericsson). But in sims i always had to use labels cause otherwise i felt ceated against the AI. What do you think about this?

[Boberro]

I knew in LO tanks are too easy, but didn't know IRL those bastards have IR smoke by which can evade missile hit :D

 

Also IRL they can have a leafs on itself in LO are bald :)

 

So... I suspect in future in DCS tank will smoke around itself by IR and common smoke to prevent aim and do evasive maneuvers, right? Of course right :D

Edited October 14, 2008 by Boberro

[GGTharos]

You're correct about HW - I personally still thing that initial visual detection in LO is way too optimistic (16nm standard for a fighter, aspect-independent) regardless of what happens at shorter ranges as well (Where aircraft sort of dissapear when they shouldn't)

 

that bring us to a second question. Always in games its harder to eyeball targets because of HW limitation. In real life depending on conditions you can see a fighter plane easily at 8km and even make out some details, at 15km if you are lucky and i remember once this summer i managed to follow with eyes one helicopter even though i was more than 30km away (though it was an orange ericsson). But in sims i always had to use labels cause otherwise i felt ceated against the AI. What do you think about this?

[GGTharos]

I knew in LO tanks are too easy, but didn't know IRL those bastards have IR smoke by which can evade missile hit :D

 

Again, IR smoke is a new thing, and it has less to do with missiles and more to do with other tanks using their IR stuff to shoot you with the gun. It just so happens that it also happily works on missiles.

 

But, you MUST maneuver, because some missiles will continue along their original line of flight (and obviously so will tank rounds :D )

 

So... I suspect in future in DCS tank will smoke around itself by IR and common smoke to prevent aim and do evasive maneuvers, right? Of course right :D

 

Maybe in some future module :)

[RedTiger]

I knew in LO tanks are too easy, but didn't know IRL those bastards have IR smoke by which can evade missile hit :D

 

Also IRL they can have a leafs on itself in LO are bald :)

 

So... I suspect in future in DCS tank will smoke around itself by IR and common smoke to prevent aim and do evasive maneuvers, right? Of course right :D

 

Tanks in FC are brain dead fish in a barrel made from wet paper bags. They basically have two modes -- alive & brewed up and blown the hell. Flight sims tend to view ground units in a binary way of either alive or dead and therefore give an inaccurate picture of their true survivability. :mad:

 

But, you MUST maneuver, because some missiles will continue along their original line of flight (and obviously so will tank rounds :D )

 

Or just use it to mask your movements while you attack. Its a hell of a thing to be able to rain smoke down on the battlefield and fight THROUGH that because you have IR sights and the other guy doesn't! Taking away that initial capability is a huge difference.

Edited October 14, 2008 by RedTiger

[GGTharos]

Yes. SB PRO FTW! :)

[EvilBivol-1]

AFAIK, newer smoke grenades also include anti-radar protection. I'd imagine this is similar to chaff, but I've heard it described as "snot." Maybe this is it?

 

Edited October 14, 2008 by EvilBivol-1

[GGTharos]

Yeah, because millimetre-wave radar uses different principles to detect targets (in many cases doppler/MTI isn't going to cut it since the targets can be stationary)

[RedTiger]

Yes. SB PRO FTW! :)

 

Hehe, you know what I'm talking about!

Edited October 14, 2008 by RedTiger