Help with 2 vs 2 sidewinder training

[Double Dutch]

Hi,

 

I need help with the 2-2 sidewinder training missions. I know that the wingman menu to have him engage doesn't work so I am on my own.

 

We go head to head but my missiles seem to miss, his don't! Since we are going head to head I have tried firing my missiles early to force him to maneuver and perhaps not fire.

His rockets are mega accurate though.

 

Anyone can help me with some pointers here? AoA, firing rage, radar type?

 

[Zarbas]

Hi Double Dutch, 

 

The subject is quite deep, so I'll just try to cover a few points mainly related to your questions.

 

First of all, to understand the context a bit better, I'd suggest you open the mission in the mission editor, remove both your wingman and 1 enemy plane, and you start practicing on a 1v1, maybe without firing (learn how to defend). To simplifying it by quite a bit, you can see it as an extended version of the 1v1 guns only training, with the addition of Fox 2 missiles.

If you're unfamiliar with the missiles codes, names, ranges etc I'd dig a bit deeper in the subject because understanding your platform, weapons and what you're facing is really key.

 

In this specific mission, you're armed with 6 sidewinders model M, and the enemy planes have something quite similar. They're infrared missiles, so no on-board radar, and the M variant is quite old so it has low boresight capabilities and maneuverability compared to the X version. You need a clear shot to hit, but I'd suggest you get your feel for it trying a few times on your own in a 1v1. 

 

Going back to the reason why you keep missing while they hit you consistently, it's probably related more the the way you defend than how you're employing your weapons (assuming you're firiring withing the right parameters, of course). How do you usually defend from heatseeking missiles? Burners have a really big impact, so it could be the main issue.

To learn how to defend, try with something extreme until you get the feel for it: as soon as you see the missile flying, throttle to idle, break left or right and expend flares generously.

 

 

[Double Dutch]

50 minutes ago, Zarbas said:

Hi Double Dutch, 

 

The subject is quite deep, so I'll just try to cover a few points mainly related to your questions.

 

First of all, to understand the context a bit better, I'd suggest you open the mission in the mission editor, remove both your wingman and 1 enemy plane, and you start practicing on a 1v1, maybe without firing (learn how to defend). To simplifying it by quite a bit, you can see it as an extended version of the 1v1 guns only training, with the addition of Fox 2 missiles.

If you're unfamiliar with the missiles codes, names, ranges etc I'd dig a bit deeper in the subject because understanding your platform, weapons and what you're facing is really key.

 

In this specific mission, you're armed with 6 sidewinders model M, and the enemy planes have something quite similar. They're infrared missiles, so no on-board radar, and the M variant is quite old so it has low boresight capabilities and maneuverability compared to the X version. You need a clear shot to hit, but I'd suggest you get your feel for it trying a few times on your own in a 1v1. 

 

Going back to the reason why you keep missing while they hit you consistently, it's probably related more the the way you defend than how you're employing your weapons (assuming you're firiring withing the right parameters, of course). How do you usually defend from heatseeking missiles? Burners have a really big impact, so it could be the main issue.

To learn how to defend, try with something extreme until you get the feel for it: as soon as you see the missile flying, throttle to idle, break left or right and expend flares generously.

 

 

hi, Thanks for the info.

 

These are standard training missions with DCS so I will try and figure out if I can edit them or how :-).

 

I thought boresight is radar too to help you track the enemy, I was thinking on going on tone/cage alone and try to fire more stealthy.

 

So when going head to head. what range do you fire the Sidewinder M

 

I do see him flaring a lot and that makes it hard to figure out he has launched. If you go head to head after firing your Sidewinder, where do you go? left, right, down, up, shooting flares all the time I assume? I don't use afterburing but his missiles don't need that to be spot on.

[Zarbas]

You can edit the default mission. You can't overwrite them in the main folder though (I wouldn't do it anyway), but you can save the mission you're working on as a copy in your personal mission folder.

 

About getting a radar lock, it definitely helps ranging your target and pointing the Aim9 seeker in the right direction, but in some situations it may give away your position. Just remember it won't help you hitting the target as the Sidewinders are heatseeking missiles, and they're not radar guided. Don't think too much about beight stealthy, at least vs the AI, it doesn't really matter as it always knows where you are no matter what.

 

Talking about the range you should fire your missile, it really depends on your speed and target aspect and there is no hard rule. Take it with a grain of salt, but on a "head to head" engagement I would wait until you're at least below 3-4nm to have a decent chance. 

 

About which direction you should break to evade, it doesn't really matter if it's left or right unless you're gaining or giving away some advantage picking one instead of the other. The only thing I could say you should avoid is to go up, unless you really know what you're doing. Then yes, use your flares: they go to waste anyway if you die

 

 

[Double Dutch]

10 hours ago, Zarbas said:

You can edit the default mission. You can't overwrite them in the main folder though (I wouldn't do it anyway), but you can save the mission you're working on as a copy in your personal mission folder.

 

About getting a radar lock, it definitely helps ranging your target and pointing the Aim9 seeker in the right direction, but in some situations it may give away your position. Just remember it won't help you hitting the target as the Sidewinders are heatseeking missiles, and they're not radar guided. Don't think too much about beight stealthy, at least vs the AI, it doesn't really matter as it always knows where you are no matter what.

 

Talking about the range you should fire your missile, it really depends on your speed and target aspect and there is no hard rule. Take it with a grain of salt, but on a "head to head" engagement I would wait until you're at least below 3-4nm to have a decent chance. 

 

About which direction you should break to evade, it doesn't really matter if it's left or right unless you're gaining or giving away some advantage picking one instead of the other. The only thing I could say you should avoid is to go up, unless you really know what you're doing. Then yes, use your flares: they go to waste anyway if you die

 

 

Ok... I will try again.

[Theodore42]

Hi!

 

So if you're still a little confused about what to do you should watch a few Youtubers doing IR dogfights.

That way you can post specific questions about the video here and you'll get a lot more replies. As it is your question is too broad and most players that can respond wouldn't be satisfied unless they wrote a 5 page replay to your post, which is a bit much!

[slug88]

In addition to everything that’s been said, telling your AI wingman to attack bandits or cover you will absolutely work. When I was practicing with that mission my wingman usually took out one bandit while I got the other one.