Ataka proximity fuse very usefull

[GGTharos]

21 minutes ago, fargo007 said:

I'd actually love to test this someday. Recreate J-CATCH in DCS. 

Once we get some  longer range AA missiles on RW anyhow. The Mistral is pretty capable as is.

Helis had no missiles for J-CATCH IIRC, the kills were made with guns and reported as kills just because the helis would call guns

21 minutes ago, fargo007 said:

Aside of the vagaries of whether or not the FW radar we have would IRL accurately be able to pick out and lock a helicopter that was flying literally below treetop level against a massive amount of ground clutter - most of it cheerfully absorbing radar. 

If you're facing F-15/16/18 modeled in DCS, it should be able to track you in any case that isn't terrain masking.  DCS doesn't do that, it lets you notch those radars.  Not sure about the 14 due to how the blades present needing a bit more modern processing (similarly for the MiG-29 and Su-27), but given that the eagles were shooting 7Fs at that time and were working with the older version of the APG-63 at that point, you'd be SOL without air cover unless for some convoluted, inexplicable reason these fighters were forced to fly into your WEZ.   In DCS people just do this voluntarily so ... YMMV.

BTW, radar clutter doesn't absorb radar ... you can't hide those blades from the doppler filter even if you're sitting on the ground.  If they're spinning, the radar knows where you are (proven in real combat!) and ... again ... not applicable to DCS, it gives you a free pass - the rotor's not part of the radar game.

But to repeat and make it perfectly clear:   4th gen PD radar do not care how low you are.   The radar clutter reduces detection range (still very comfortably BVR), it doesn't hide you.

DCS also gives you a pretty unrealistic IR signature reduction so aircraft have to come in a lot closer with their heaters than they should have to.

Edited November 8, 2021 by GGTharos

[fargo007]

I think you're making a lot of assumptions about what's "claimed" with the pulse doppler radars here versus what their actual capabilities are. 

The ground clutter I'm referring to is any combination of structures, trees, and terrain. Most of this absorbs radar, and much of it will directly mask. So I question the ability to detect, lock, and engage a low flying RW actively evading you at great distance anyhow IRL, especially when he knows you're there way before you can find him. I haven't seen any evidence that the trees/veg in DCS absorb radar like they should. 

Your radar will show us exactly what direction you're coming from on the RWR. So we'll always know which direction to mask from, and routing will be managed accordingly. 

We'll also know when you are nose hot, and nose cold, and can plan accordingly. 

Besides - if helicopters know there are enemy fixed wings there (which means a whole lot of other things have failed to an absurd extent), we're not going to be transiting in a straight line across flat ground. 

So yeah you'll shoot from far away, but I doubt you'll actually bring an aircraft down before it's time for you to go home. 

The overarching point here, and one you seem to indirectly support is that a FW aircraft that comes into the WEZ of a properly equipped helicopter is at a supreme disadvantage. That's what J-CATCH ultimately concluded:  "Your arms are too short to go in and box with RW. "   And that's what's borne out in DCS too; nobody's out there actively hunting and killing RW with SPAMMRAMs. 

DCS is all we've got, so with the R-60's coming for the hind, and Iglas for the BS3, it makes sense to begin experimenting, and I sure will. Tactics don't really matter at this point, it's just BVR, and all about the implementation of the radar and missile. 

[GGTharos]

You can write as many paragraphs as you want; helis have fared quite poorly against fighters in general.   Fighter radars won't be bothered by trees, they won't be in the LOS.

[fargo007]

Of course. I'll write as many as I choose to.

Where exactly have Helicopters "fared quite poorly" against fighters in general? Please show the statistics or other supporting documents you rely on.

In fact, I've yet to see a single piece of actual data to support anything at all that you've claimed, no less any easy to furnish proof you can do in DCS that which you purport you can.

You're already here telling the Air force and Army how flawed and meaningless their studies are. 

And no surprise here - also with no evidence at all.

Edited November 8, 2021 by fargo007

[NeedzWD40]

4 hours ago, GGTharos said:

Helis had no missiles for J-CATCH IIRC

They simulated a few engagements with MANPADS simulators, but I've only found anecdotal information on such. Actual J-CATCH documentation is either restricted or not digitized, so the actual methodology and metrics is not readily available. Thus far, this PDF is the most in-depth I've been able to find on the project, and the picture it paints doesn't exclusively indicate it was simply jets vs helicopters:

https://web.archive.org/web/20111007115109/http://www.thepavecave.com/documents/20thSOS/1979.pdf

5 hours ago, GGTharos said:

Not sure about the 14 due to how the blades present needing a bit more modern processing (similarly for the MiG-29 and Su-27)

AWG-9 doesn't have much problem maintaining track of helicopters in my experience, just that more often than not the AIM-7s don't track because DCS reasons. AIM-54s are fairly consistent (if a bit wasteful), however.

5 hours ago, GGTharos said:

In DCS people just do this voluntarily so ... YMMV.

In a few of my scenarios, I have AI helicopters flying around with AAMs and it gets entertaining (and sad) to see real players try to fight these aircraft. Recently, I got to watch 3 player F-14s get shot down by a single Mi-24V. Wouldn't have mattered if they could've locked onto the radar signature or not since they were playing to the Hind's advantages.

5 hours ago, GGTharos said:

DCS also gives you a pretty unrealistic IR signature reduction so aircraft have to come in a lot closer with their heaters than they should have to.

The only thing is that this is kind of a wash for player Mi-24Ps as they don't have flare spam and player flares are totally dependent on RNG, compared to the AI's mythical flare performance. Even if I immediately start flinging out flares as soon as I see a fighter, its a 50/50 chance as to whether or not they'll work against an IR missile. This does result in a more aggressive response on my part because I either end up getting an AT-9 ready and hoping Petrovich will see them or start spraying with the cannon, because it's only a matter of time before they wear me down.

Everything else has flare spam so with them it's pretty much just throw out bucketloads of flares and there's nothing to worry about, unless they go gunzo.

4 hours ago, fargo007 said:

The overarching point here, and one you seem to indirectly support is that a FW aircraft that comes into the WEZ of a properly equipped helicopter is at a supreme disadvantage.

I'd argue it's more about situational context rather than an "every time" sort of deal. Most DCS scenarios don't do a very good job at simulating real world situations, ROE, etc. and with good reason, as a lot of that can get boring pretty quick. A helicopter with a turreted gun and AAMs in the mountains has a lot more options than a helicopter with a fixed gun in the flat desert. I've had my share of kills in a variety of jets against helicopters by simply switching to the A/G gun mode and putting a bunch of rounds in the vicinity, likewise a variety of A/G ordnance. I've also had cases where I come up from behind and fire an IR missile with the helicopter unawares, ditto A/A gun. Conversely, I've also ran anti-aircraft sorties in a Gazelle Mistral by hiding behind buildings and popping up to fire into their exposed rears, or more recently AT-9/AT-16 to the face of oncoming fighters. In virtually all cases, the other side was simply not paying attention to what they were doing nor did they have the skills or knowhow; if that were to change, then all the outcomes are quite different.

As a note on J-CATCH: bear in mind it was conducted in the late 70s. A lot has changed since then, in terms of technology, tactics, procedures, etc. Using it as an end-all, be-all example is a bit flawed if looking through the lens of the modern era. It'd be making the same mistake made in the 80s of assuming that the ZSU-23-4 is the only real threat to helicopters, ignoring proliferation of all-aspect IR missiles, advanced SHORAD like SA-19, SA-15, and so on.

Aside: the now-archived ACIG.org had some good records of shootdowns in the Iran-Iraq war, where we can analyze some metrics of helicopters on a modern-ish battlefield. The Iranians have several presumably confirmed kills vs jets, with the Iraqis having a few claims with their Mi-25s. This of course must be taken with a healthy dose of salt, but it is a starting point at a minimum:

https://web.archive.org/web/20071228202316/http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_214.shtml

https://web.archive.org/web/20080111222740/http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_211.shtml

https://web.archive.org/web/20060829121136/http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_404.shtml

[fargo007]

51 minutes ago, NeedzWD40 said:

They simulated a few engagements with MANPADS simulators, but I've only found anecdotal information on such. Actual J-CATCH documentation is either restricted or not digitized, so the actual methodology and metrics is not readily available. Thus far, this PDF is the most in-depth I've been able to find on the project, and the picture it paints doesn't exclusively indicate it was simply jets vs helicopters:

https://web.archive.org/web/20111007115109/http://www.thepavecave.com/documents/20thSOS/1979.pdf

AWG-9 doesn't have much problem maintaining track of helicopters in my experience, just that more often than not the AIM-7s don't track because DCS reasons. AIM-54s are fairly consistent (if a bit wasteful), however.

In a few of my scenarios, I have AI helicopters flying around with AAMs and it gets entertaining (and sad) to see real players try to fight these aircraft. Recently, I got to watch 3 player F-14s get shot down by a single Mi-24V. Wouldn't have mattered if they could've locked onto the radar signature or not since they were playing to the Hind's advantages.

The only thing is that this is kind of a wash for player Mi-24Ps as they don't have flare spam and player flares are totally dependent on RNG, compared to the AI's mythical flare performance. Even if I immediately start flinging out flares as soon as I see a fighter, its a 50/50 chance as to whether or not they'll work against an IR missile. This does result in a more aggressive response on my part because I either end up getting an AT-9 ready and hoping Petrovich will see them or start spraying with the cannon, because it's only a matter of time before they wear me down.

Everything else has flare spam so with them it's pretty much just throw out bucketloads of flares and there's nothing to worry about, unless they go gunzo.

I'd argue it's more about situational context rather than an "every time" sort of deal. Most DCS scenarios don't do a very good job at simulating real world situations, ROE, etc. and with good reason, as a lot of that can get boring pretty quick. A helicopter with a turreted gun and AAMs in the mountains has a lot more options than a helicopter with a fixed gun in the flat desert. I've had my share of kills in a variety of jets against helicopters by simply switching to the A/G gun mode and putting a bunch of rounds in the vicinity, likewise a variety of A/G ordnance. I've also had cases where I come up from behind and fire an IR missile with the helicopter unawares, ditto A/A gun. Conversely, I've also ran anti-aircraft sorties in a Gazelle Mistral by hiding behind buildings and popping up to fire into their exposed rears, or more recently AT-9/AT-16 to the face of oncoming fighters. In virtually all cases, the other side was simply not paying attention to what they were doing nor did they have the skills or knowhow; if that were to change, then all the outcomes are quite different.

As a note on J-CATCH: bear in mind it was conducted in the late 70s. A lot has changed since then, in terms of technology, tactics, procedures, etc. Using it as an end-all, be-all example is a bit flawed if looking through the lens of the modern era. It'd be making the same mistake made in the 80s of assuming that the ZSU-23-4 is the only real threat to helicopters, ignoring proliferation of all-aspect IR missiles, advanced SHORAD like SA-19, SA-15, and so on.

Aside: the now-archived ACIG.org had some good records of shootdowns in the Iran-Iraq war, where we can analyze some metrics of helicopters on a modern-ish battlefield. The Iranians have several presumably confirmed kills vs jets, with the Iraqis having a few claims with their Mi-25s. This of course must be taken with a healthy dose of salt, but it is a starting point at a minimum:

https://web.archive.org/web/20071228202316/http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_214.shtml

https://web.archive.org/web/20080111222740/http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_211.shtml

https://web.archive.org/web/20060829121136/http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_404.shtml

Good post. 

I'm unable to get an AI F-15C to fire BVR on me while in a Mistral. They'll shoot but only close up.

Like you said, once fixed wings come in close, they are stupid simple to kill in a mistral by just masking until they overfly and pull up into the sky, usually with AB's too, which doesn't help them.

I agree J-CATCH is old, but it's still a foundational experience that still influences doctrine. And it's evolved both ways. Air to air missiles have improved on the FW end, and RW are now armed with A2A missiles, when they were not at the time. Even so, it's clear the conclusions of J-CATCH still hold true.... A fighter aircraft can expect to get shot down more often than not if it decides (other than with complete surprise) to come in close and engage in a turning fight with an attack helicopter or missile platform like the Mistral.

There's no example of air tasking I can find where a modern fighter aircraft has been expressly tasked to search for and engage enemy helicopters, so it seems like a very rare or even moot circumstance outside DCS.

[NeedzWD40]

1 hour ago, fargo007 said:

I'm unable to get an AI F-15C to fire BVR on me while in a Mistral. They'll shoot but only close up.

AI fixed wing are very skittish about utilizing BVR weapons on helicopters in general. It happens on rare occasions (and seemingly always to me, never AI), but I've never been able to get them to consistently utilize such weapons. It's been a while since I tested them, so I might need to give jets exclusive SARH/ARH missiles and see if they use them as a last resort. As a player, I usually end up using the gun just because the AI has a lot of dark arts and arcane magic in their chaff and flares.

1 hour ago, fargo007 said:

Even so, it's clear the conclusions of J-CATCH still hold true.... A fighter aircraft can expect to get shot down more often than not if it decides (other than with complete surprise) to come in close and engage in a turning fight with an attack helicopter or missile platform like the Mistral.

I find that for the fixed wing party, it hearkens back to WWII BnZ tactics -- it is essentially how a energy fighter will deal with a turn fighter. Missiles change the dynamic of course, but by and large if the fixed wing pilot sticks to slashing tactics, they can deny the helicopter a lot of advantages. Naturally, every situation is different, so I liken the whole dynamic to a knife fight in a phone booth. If both parties come with HOBS missiles, then WVR between the two just got a whole lot dangerous for everyone.

1 hour ago, fargo007 said:

There's no example of air tasking I can find where a modern fighter aircraft has been expressly tasked to search for and engage enemy helicopters, so it seems like a very rare or even moot circumstance outside DCS.

The only time I can think of would've been the '94 blue-on-blue UH-60s shot down by F-15s during Provide Comfort.

Given that fixed wing elements can have huge impacts on rotary wing elements in the conduct of their missions, it makes sense to not take unnecessary risks on the rotary wing side. Operating within the friendly ADA umbrella or in concert with friendly CAP is simply the better move to take -- and if all possible, both!