AI A-4 Skyhawk and an idea for better mod support

[upyr1]

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

I don’t disagree with that, I just don’t see what it has to do with the mod. 

 The presence in the market of a high-quality freeware module will pretty much discourage any 3rd party from creating a paid DLC version. 

 

I stated that in the original post. Which is why I want an AI Skyhawk in dcs core and some way to assign it as a stand in when a player doesn't have the mod so that they can do on line against people who have it or fly a mission that uses the mod for an ai Skyhawk.

[upyr1]

3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

And so now anyone who wanted an actual DCS Skyhawk DLC will never get one. Thanks modding team

 

I do agree with this assessment as I don't expect anyone will try to compete against the community mod.

3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

 

An official module would of course be useable in the ME and game like you’re asking. So you want ED to create some sorta workaround for the obstacle these modders created. Giving away a free value-add to freeware that cuts in on their business

Sometimes giving things away can mean more profit. For example I believe the goshawk mod helped sell supercarriers. Also I expect people will buy the south Atlantic map to provide the a-4 a realistic scenario and people will buy other Vietnam era aircraft.

[upyr1]

3 hours ago, Tippis said:

Have you tried reading the OP?

That's not how DLC actually works. Or business. Or DCS. Or modding.

A work-around for the obstacle plane mods (and indeed any mod) creates is needed regardless of how little you want to understand 

Even without the walk around in order to sell an official a-4 module a developer will have to do a significantly different variant. Though make mods easier to use and it might sell maps and other modules 

[upyr1]

10 hours ago, cfrag said:

So it seems that you are opposed to free community-created mods because they potentially threaten for-profit DLC development. That is definitely a valid point, albeit one that is pretty far out-field and unlikely to be applicable across the board. I don't feel comfortable weighing the pros and cons; I have the feeling that a well-made official DLC still have a good chance against a well-made community model (MB339 perhaps?).  

But let me put it differently:
I develop missions and provide them to the community for free. Are you equally opposed to that? My activities may threaten for-profit third-party missions/campaign development if I follow your reasoning.

I believe that I grasp your rationale, but I don't think that I agree with it. 

While I think it might be hard for a commercial module to compete with a free one (unless they are significantly different) I still think embracing efforts like the community A-4 will help sell maps and other modules. I hope that the MB399 team are successful 

Edited January 21, 2022 by upyr1

[JNelson]

10 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Unless someone actually holds the rights to those they can never become commercial products. I think this has probably been discussed a billion times or so. 

This is just not true. If you were to make a mod a module you would likely build it from the ground up again, this is because as most mods are, even the A-4 are not good enough fidelity for a module. The advantage of starting from a mod is you already have done it once and can take an appropriate approach and have knowledge of the systems and sources of information.

8 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

And so now anyone who wanted an actual DCS Skyhawk DLC will never get one. Thanks modding team

An official module would of course be useable in the ME and game like you’re asking. So you want ED to create some sorta workaround for the obstacle these modders created. Giving away a free value-add to freeware that cuts in on their business

I think ED would agree mods are good for business, not to mention almost every third part started out with a mod, public or not. 

[upyr1]

23 minutes ago, JNelson said:

This is just not true. If you were to make a mod a module you would likely build it from the ground up again, this is because as most mods are, even the A-4 are not good enough fidelity for a module. The advantage of starting from a mod is you already have done it once and can take an appropriate approach and have knowledge of the systems and sources of information.

I think ED would agree mods are good for business, not to mention almost every third part started out with a mod, public or not. 

The only thing I could see stopping a commercial A-4 module is the fact it would have to compete with the community mod, but I figure even if DCS implemented all of my mod support wish list if the official module is different enough then people like myself will have both. As I keep saying  even if no one decides to produce an official A-4 module  I think the comunity mod will enhance DCS. I expect people who like the A-4 will buy Razbam's South Atlantic map. Also when we get the F-4 especially if it is a Naval bird we'll see A-4 aviators populating the server

[cfrag]

3 hours ago, upyr1 said:

The only thing I could see stopping a commercial A-4 module is the fact it would have to compete with the community mod

Community mods aren't built for profit, they are governed simply by ability, enthusiasm and opportunity of those brave and heroic enough to build them. They are stopped when one of those run out. The only thing that is stopping a commercial module of any stripe is when cost exceeds (potential) profit. Even if there is something spectacularly well-made, similar and free, there are usually still lots of reasons to make a for-profit similar product. See the flight sim market outside DCS. See the game market at large. Applications - there are myriads of paid-for applications in the office space even though there is Libre Office, with new contenders appearing every month. Same for graphics app. Renderers, CAD, Audio, Source Versioning, Compilers, IDE, Messaging, etc. Competition is good, and if you can't hack it in the pro space, that doesn't mean it's because of the competition. It simply means that you don't see a way to bring anything worthwhile to the market. Somebody else might.

Anyone who thinks that community mods stifle the commercial guys should take another, hard look at the market. Unlike game community, nobody is in the game business to entertain us. They are there to make money. It's just that if they fail at the first, they also fail the latter. That applies to DLC as well. If there is a good community mod that everyone is raving about, all a good producer sees is an opportunity: a large potential market begging to be exploited. So they run the cost. And that's when it gets dicey. For-profit endeavors are prone to licenses and litigation - because there is money to be had. If you do a free mod, you probably won't get the attention of corporations. If you do it commercial, you better make sure that you have all releases and negotiate all licenses, else it's going to be very expensive for your company in court. Depending on who you are and what the licensing party (e.g. Boeing) demands, the project is priced, and the numbers are run. Then the business decision is made. In that calculation, almost everyone who already has the free, unlicensed mod is counted as an asset! Community mods are a great, free (!) way for the commercial guys to test the market, and filter out the diamonds for professional exploitation - that's the exact opposite of a hurdle. If the A4 isn't made commercially, the most likely reason are upfront cost and/or license fees to the IP holders. 

4 hours ago, upyr1 said:

but I figure even if DCS implemented all of my mod support wish list if the official module is different enough then people like myself will have both

Yes! Exactly! - I feel the same, and that is what smart product managers are also betting on. Free community mods are a great way to test the waters. A professional A4 has enormous market potential, as the rabid community (that includes me of course) proves - exploit me! So if an A4 project fails to start, it's not because of the community mods. It fails because business was unable to fund the project even though there is proof positive that people want it. 

 

[upyr1]

5 hours ago, cfrag said:

Anyone who thinks that community mods stifle the commercial guys should take another, hard look at the market. Unlike game community, nobody is in the game business to entertain us. They are there to make money. It's just that if they fail at the first, they also fail the latter. That applies to DLC as well. If there is a good community mod that everyone is raving about, all a good producer sees is an opportunity: a large potential market begging to be exploited.

I don't see community mods as stifling the commercial market, as I see both as enhancing DCS. If the community A-4 is the main reason that no one wants to produce a commercial A-4 module, then I would expect them to produce a different aircraft instead so now we get two. As I keep saying I also expect people will buy Razbam's South Atlantic map. So I don't see it as having any detrimental effect

[cfrag]

27 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

So I don't see it as having any detrimental effect

Agreed. Not to mention the fact that DCS, Caucasus, Marianas, the fantastic SU-25T and dinky T51 are all free - and had the effect to persuade me to buy all maps, all airplanes (including the Hawk), and all other DLC, including CA. Of which I only regret purchasing exactly one (no, not the Hawk ). So when a free title persuades you to spend in excess of 1K of your cold, hard-earned cash, that's a pretty convincing story. Same goes for the community mods.

Edited January 21, 2022 by cfrag