KA-50 is it really any good?

[geogob]

The design and tech is fairly old in the KA-50. Pretty impressive still today, even at its age.

 

Military aircraft have many upgrades as they grow older. New version come out of production chains with newer, modern equipment and older are retrofitted with new systems (and the same could be said about civilian aircraft).

 

As I understand it, the KA-50 never entered full production and no major contract was signed. Because of this, no major revision of the systems where made (it's not really interesting to make a major overhaul process of only a few models built and for some prototypes).

 

If the KA-50 or 52 ever enters full production, I think one can expect a full overhaul of the systems. Possibly include better night capabilities, etc. But for such a small number of built units, it's a process that's too expensive.

 

edit: I see the KA-52 seems to have more advanced systems and avionics. Understandable... it's more recent. If new KA-50s are built, these systems will probably migrate to as well.

Edited January 7, 2009 by geogob

[AlexHunter]

The proposed options for the Defense Ministry Ka-52 and Mi-28N (M) December 26, 2008

1) cheap

 

2) more expensive cost

At a more expensive version of KA-52 is visible laser protection against missiles with infrared GSN, the type of number on board the 025 Ka-50 and Mi-28N that a lot of interesting further set out in a more expensive option

 

http://www.missiles.ru/foto_Chkal_Ka_Mil-08.htm

Edited January 9, 2009 by AlexHunter

[EvilBivol-1]

As to RWR, we know that this was tested on at least one KA-50 prototype...

We do? Edited April 4, 2009 by EvilBivol-1

[uhoh7]

+1 Rep to everybody for this interesting discussion.

 

It fascinates me is that we are having this discussion as a spin-off from a simulator. I think it speaks volumes of the quality of DCS Black Shark.

 

Without doubt, attack helicopter doctrines and tactics among the major military superpowers are in a state of constant flux. Studying, revising and ultimately changing military doctrine is supposed to happen through all combat arms, just take a look at the US Cavalry during the last war in Iraq. But when it comes to attack helicopters it is more evident.

 

And then, the even more fertile ground of ideas for helicopter vs helicopter combat ...

 

Take a look at this article:

 

Air Defense with an Attitude: Helicopter vs. Helicopter Combat

(once you get to the link, click into the proxy URL and it will download a pdf document)

 

That article is not new, but yeah has some nice info on the use of the Ka-50 in the anti-air role. Enjoy.

 

That article is intertesting because it says AA missles had been seen on KA50s.

 

In the following article, we can see even the MI24s will be upgraded with RWR and IR missle warning, these systems will be in the MI28 if production continues. A KA50 fitted with L150 and the MakUFM is no stretch, if you imagine them deployed in a battlefield such as that depicted in the GOW.

 

"The Mil Design Bureau has a three-stage, five-block MLU configuration for the estimated 200 surviving Mi-24V/P in Russian Federation service that will extend their retirement date to 2010. While the vast majority of the improvements are to operating systems, Stage III deletes the L-166V-1E IRCM System and replaces it with the Mak-UFM IR missile-approach warner and the L-140 Otklik laser-warning system that detects and identifies hostile laser designators and rangefinders. When lasers and radars illuminate the helicopter, the warning system issues a message to the crew, indicating the type and direction of the threat. The Beryoza radar- warning receiver is replaced by the L-150 "Pastel" radar-warning receiver. The UV-26 chaff/flare dispensers are retained. Russia's two newest attack helicopters are the Mi-28 Havoc and the Ka-50 Black Shark. Only the "Black Shark" has seen combat in Chechnya, spurring new tactics even though the mujihadeen reportedly have yet to engage the two or three aircraft in theater. The Mi-28N Havoc's Vitebsk self-defense system includes the Pastel radar- warning unit, Mak IR missile-approach warners, laser warners, a Platan electronic jamming system, and wingtip-mounted countermeasures pods with UV-26 flare dispensers. An export version of this aircraft was offered to South Korea in 2000. The Ka-50 is fitted with a radar- warning receiver, an EW system and UV-26 chaff/flare dispenser. The L150 "Pastel" RWR in the tailcone, at rear of each wingtip EW pod and under, nose covers the 1.2- to 18-GHz frequencies and is able to intercept pulse, pulse-Doppler, and continuous-wave signals. It can operate in a stand-alone mode or be integrated with the electronic-countermeasures system. There are also four UV-26 chaff/flare dispensers, with a total of 512 chaff/flare cartridges in each wingtip pod with a predefined release sequence, and a L-136 Mak IR warner, as well as a L-140 Otklik laser warner."

 

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=51636&page=2

 

Also noted much further along in the same thread, which has alot of info:

 

"Not to be left out, Israeli firms have also developed Mi-24 upgrades. IAI Tamam developed its Mission 24 modernization package, which it has proposed for Poland, but the company's real success came from another part of the world. After building one prototype in 2000, India decided to modernize 25 of its Mi-24Ds and Mi-24Vs (used in India under the export designations of Mi-25 and Mi-35, respectively). The IAI package includes an integrated avionics suite, INS/GPS navigation, new displays, and NVG-compatible cockpits. The system also integrates a helmet-mounted sight and cueing system, as well as an additional observation and targeting turret: the Helicopter Multi-Mission Optronic Stabilized Payload (HMOSP), derived from the system used on US Marine Corps AH-1W helicopters. It includes a dual-band FLIR, LLL CCD TV camera, and a laser rangefinder/illuminator. The latter can include a laser designator, if the user wishes to employ Helfire missiles with the system. However, when the user wishes to retain Russian anti-tank missiles (as is the case with India), it is necessary to also retain the Raduga-Sh, since integrating them with the HMOSP would be too costly. The self-protection system consists of RWRs, laser and missile warners, the Ispanka IR jammer, and AN/ALE-40 chaff/flare dispensers.

 

India selected IAI Taman's modernization proposal, and the first three Mi-35 Mission 24 helicopters were tested by the 104th Helicopter Squadron at Pathankot in February 2003. As of early 2005, the modernization in still underway. The ultimate number of the Mi-35 and Mi-35P helicopters that are to be modernized is unknown."

 

ED's line is: KA50s don't have RWR, and we want to stay true to the real thing. Of course this also saves the trouble of modeling a L-150 or MakUFM. In truth, from what I can see, no two KA50s are the same, each has a different history, and has been tested in various ways.

 

The L-150 is not X-Wing equipment. I hope someday ED shows some reality based vision, which gives us the real tools of the modern battlefield. Let's make the Iglas real, but give the mission desinger the option of fitting his KA50s with the makUFM (though this might just put us back where we are now, hehe).

 

Modernization and upgrades are part of real life.

Edited April 4, 2009 by uhoh7

[EvilBivol-1]

So, where is the info about a RWR being tested on a Ka-50 prototype?

A KA50 fitted with L150 and the MakUFM is no stretch, if you imagine them deployed in a battlefield such as that depicted in the GOW.

ED is not actually opposed to modeling the MAK-UFM system, because it has been tested on a Ka-50 and the latest service machines to roll off the production line carry the sensor pods for it (not the actual sensors though). This is not the case for the L-150 (or even SPO-15). Edited April 4, 2009 by EvilBivol-1