Piamax 8kx - Is it me, or my system? (Poor Image Quality)

[Mistermann]

Is the Pimax 8kx right for me at this time?

This is a post about my experience with the Pimax 8kx after 3 days of use.  I am moving off the Oculus Rift-S, so will compare the Pimax experience with my personal experiences with the Rift-S over the past 5 years.

I purchased the Pimax knowing my machine specs were likely on the low end for the headset.

• CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM) i9-9900K CPU @ 3.60GHz, 3600 Mhz
• RAM: 32GB
• Video Card: NVIDIA TRX 2080TI (32GM VRAM) 

I figured if my experience was horrible, I’d have a headset for my next machine upgrade.  I fear I am in that situation…

Insane FOV

First off – The Pimax FOV is extreme!  The sense of speed that I found lacking in the Rift is definitely there in the Pimax as the FOV feels close to real life to me.  It this reason alone that I am willing to give up some image quality.  But I am not willing to go as far as unreadable gauges.

Blurry Cockpits

After days of fiddling, I can’t get the pimax to render the screens as well as the rift.  I know we’re talking apples and bananas here as the pimax’s upside is huge.  Running base vanilla stock DCS I could get 30 FPS with readable cockpits on the Rift and I am getting 70FPS and blurry cockpits on pimax.  I can’t push the DCS Pixel Density beyond 1 for the pimax.  If I push to 1.1 or greater, the pimax display stutters as I move my head from side to side. 

When using my rift, I always left the DCS pixel density at 1.0 and pushed quality and ASW in the tool, not DCS.  Maybe I can do that same thing in Pitool or Steam VR?  I don't run DCS via steam, so this steam VR is a new wrinkle to me as well. 

Note:  I am willing to go the OpenXR route, but wanted to get things dialed in with the base setup before I stared messing with mods and adding all sorts of variables to my VR experience.

What to do

For those running the pimax with a similar system to mine, are you able to read the cockpits?  I am HOPING with more configuration gymnastics I can get acceptable results from the pimax.  Below are my settings.  Any advice is absolutely appreciated.

Pimax PiTool Settings

DCS Settings

SteamVR Settings

Conclusion

It feels like I may have purchased the pimax before my system was ready to support.  I hope this is the frustration typing/speaking.  Thanks for reading.  Appreciate any advice folks are willing to share.

Thanks!

[FoxTwo]

Set your FoV to normal in pitool and enable hidden area mask for a little better performance.

FoV large has a bug in DCS with terrain lighting that hasn't been addressed (or acknowledged) in over a year.

[WipeUout]

Change FOV to normal, going from 170 degree to 150 is not a big difference visually but performance wise it is.  In steamVR (if you use it) do not have the render resolution set to auto, set it to 100% to start with and increase until your system can keep up.  Super Sampling will increase clarity but introduce stutters if you don't have the horsepower.  You will have to consider lower DCS settings such as clouds to low, Anisotropic filter to off and scenery details factor to lowest. 

From a hardware perspective, your CPU might be bottlenecked.  My previous CPU was a 9900K also and it could not keep up.  Your GPU is definitely not powerful enough to spit two 4k frames at 90hz.  Some 8kx have lower frequency option, lower it if you have the option.  If you use steamVR, consider loading fpsVR to monitor your GPU/CPU frametime while you fly, this will help you a lot to pinpoint issues and see effects of changes you make. 

Also try compulsive smoothing, this will improve the smoothness quit a bit but will introduce some ghosting which you may find acceptable instead of have stuttering.  It will not help with clarity though.

Edited September 6, 2022 by WipeUout
Typo

[Mistermann]

Fellas ... you are a godsend!  Thank you.  I am now experiencing what I expected from the Pimax.  FOV set to "small" to begin allowed me to set the DCS PD to 2.3 and I am seeing cockpits in MUCH better focus and fidelity.  While I sacrificed some FOV, it is still better than the Rift, even at the "small" setting.

I haven't had time to actually test this out from an FPS perspective, but knowing what knobs/switches to play with in the pitool helps tremendously.

Thanks!!  I'll report back where I land later.

Edited September 6, 2022 by Mistermann

[edmuss]

Once you've gotten your head around the settings, I'd recommend testing pimaxXR as that should give you access to the openxr toolkit along with a bunch of performance enhancements.

I'm not sure if the openxr reprojection works with pimaxXR (not sure if it's part of the WMR openxr drivers or the openxr toolkit itself - if it's the latter then it should work I think). If it does with pimaxXR then that's a massive bonus for DCS as it allows you to reproject well below half refresh rate - 30fps reprojection is really smooth.

Note that it requires DCS pd to be 1.0 only but there are resolution overrides in the toolkit itself that you can use to get much more granular control.

[Mistermann]

4 minutes ago, edmuss said:

Once you've gotten your head around the settings, I'd recommend testing pimaxXR as that should give you access to the openxr toolkit along with a bunch of performance enhancements.

I'm not sure if the openxr reprojection works with pimaxXR (not sure if it's part of the WMR openxr drivers or the openxr toolkit itself - if it's the latter then it should work I think). If it does with pimaxXR then that's a massive bonus for DCS as it allows you to reproject well below half refresh rate - 30fps reprojection is really smooth.

Note that it requires DCS pd to be 1.0 only but there are resolution overrides in the toolkit itself that you can use to get much more granular control.

Definitely on my list of things to try.  Once I get this stable in a "base" implementation, I will move on and test out PimaxXR.  Just based on sitting in the cockpits of the Hornet and Huey, i am in for a real treat.  I am seeing the DCS world with a whole new level of clarity.  

[Mistermann]

On 9/6/2022 at 1:41 PM, Mistermann said:

I haven't had time to actually test this out from an FPS perspective, but knowing what knobs/switches to play with in the pitool helps tremendously.

Thanks!!  I'll report back where I land later.

I was able to play around a bit and my FPS at a DCS PD of 2.3 was 20-25.  Yeah, that's no good. 

My Rift was usually no less than 30 and closer to 40 for most high altitude flights.  For me, its less about the numbers and more about the experience.  Right now, I have the DCS PD set to 1.4 and am getting between 30-40FPS.  BUT my FOV is greater and it feels like the cockpit is in sharper focus.  I could live with this for the foreseeable future, but feel I should try and squeeze out some additional performance.  I will continue to play with the settings.  I can always revert back to where I am right now.

@WipeUout - I haven't tried any of your suggestions yet.  They are next on my list to try.

I can't imagine trying to figure all this out on my own.  Thanks to all of you active participants in the community!

[WipeUout]

12 hours ago, Mistermann said:

@WipeUout - I haven't tried any of your suggestions yet.  They are next on my list to try.

No worries, DCS needs a lot of tweaking but keep some time aside to fly! 

Just another bit on using DCS Pixel Density (PD) to supersample.  You will find that DCS may not be the best in the processing chain to do supersampling and also, does not offers the same granularity as steamVR.  If you set your PD in DCS at 1.1, you are increasing the pixel count (or resolution) by 21%.  If you set the PD to 1.2, it is a 44% increase.  This becomes quickly very demanding and if you want to set it to 30% increased resolution for example, no can do with DCS PD.  SteamVR offer much more flexibility with a % slider.   PiTool also has a supersampling slider but similar to DCS, it is jumping in big increments (25, 50, 75%...).  Finding the sweet spot takes time and efforts but it is quicker with more precision.

Good luck!

[Mistermann]

5 hours ago, WipeUout said:

Just another bit on using DCS Pixel Density (PD) to supersample.  You will find that DCS may not be the best in the processing chain to do supersampling and also, does not offers the same granularity as steamVR.  If you set your PD in DCS at 1.1, you are increasing the pixel count (or resolution) by 21%.  If you set the PD to 1.2, it is a 44% increase.  This becomes quickly very demanding and if you want to set it to 30% increased resolution for example, no can do with DCS PD.  SteamVR offer much more flexibility with a % slider.   PiTool also has a supersampling slider but similar to DCS, it is jumping in big increments (25, 50, 75%...).  Finding the sweet spot takes time and efforts but it is quicker with more precision.

Please forgive the newbish question here.  I am just not familiar with the SteamVR or Pitool options and what they do.  With my Rift-S I'd set the DCS PD to 1.0 and then upped the supersampling to 2.0 in the Oculus toolkit.

Where should I be fiddling with the supersampling?  In SteamVR and leave DCS PD at 1.0???  Is that this setting here?

Thanks!!

Edited September 8, 2022 by Mistermann

[edmuss]

I would leave it all at 100% to start with to get a baseline of what your performance is looking like.  More resolution = improved clarity (to a point) but less performance; there is a point of negative returns.

Leave DCS PD well alone at 1.0, there are much better ways of manipulating the resolution, be that steamvr, openxr or pitool.

[Mistermann]

19 minutes ago, edmuss said:

Leave DCS PD well alone at 1.0, there are much better ways of manipulating the resolution, be that steamvr, openxr or pitool.

Exactly.  I'm beyond the baseline at this point.  I am trying to understand where I manipulate the resolution outside of DCS and PiTool.  Is the SteamVR setting above the place to manipulate?  

[Devil 505]

I am running with the PIMAX8K (old kick starter backer).  I did a video a few months back on ALL my settings from NVIDIA, to DCS, to PIMAX because I kept getting a lot of question.  Take a look below.  Hope it helps with any issues you might have had.  This has been years of fine tuning.  ED has done a good job improving performance over time with VR in general.  I also threw a video in from last nights flight with the new OV-10 mod.  A little choppy a few times because it is new and needs a little work, but overall a great experience.  

 

[edmuss]

Yes if using steamvr, don't forget that there is a global and an application specific resolution; these mulitply if not set the same.  So 100% global with 150% per app will give 150% total resolution, in the same way 150% global and 75% per app will give 112%.

Assuming you're using standalone, I seem to recall that unless you add DCS to the list of steamvr games it won't persistently appear in the per app list and the option to override the per app resolution for DCS will only be available via the steamvr overlay whilst DCS is running.

[Mistermann]

Thank you @edmuss and @Devil 505.

Devil, I will check those vids out ASAP.  Thanks for taking the time to post those videos!

[Devil 505]

2 hours ago, Mistermann said:

Thank you @edmuss and @Devil 505.

Devil, I will check those vids out ASAP.  Thanks for taking the time to post those videos!

Anytime.  Be glad to help if I can.  Let me know.  I think I forgot to put my steam VR setting in there.  I left them default.  I run DCS as a standalone (non steam version).  I do not like using steam vr but OPENXR does not support the openvr plugin for OBS so it prevents me from recording in VR.  If you do not record your videos, OPENXR for PIMAX is not a bad option.

[Mistermann]

@Devil 505

OMG - THANK YOU!!! 

Seriously ... thank you for that video.  I spent my lunch hour watching every second and taking notes.  I configured my system the exact same as you (we have almost identical systems).  It ROCKS!

You have saved this DCS old timer some significant heartache and pain.  DCS has never looked so good.  The FOV of the Pimax is a complete game changer.  This is coming from a guy that felt VR, in general, was/is a game changer.  The first time I experienced the sim in VR was a day I will never forget.  That day has been replaced with the first time I experienced DCS in VR on a Pimax.  

I wouldn't be saying this without your advice contained in that video.  Sir, I salute you!

 

[edmuss]

Now go play with openxr and it gets better

[Mistermann]

8 minutes ago, edmuss said:

Now go play with openxr and it gets better

I'm almost afraid to ... 

Next up - me flying the heck out of DCS for a few days.  THEN I'll play with openxr.  

[Devil 505]

3 hours ago, Mistermann said:

OMG - THANK YOU!!! 

Seriously ... thank you for that video.  I spent my lunch hour watching every second and taking notes.  I configured my system the exact same as you (we have almost identical systems).  It ROCKS!

You have saved this DCS old timer some significant heartache and pain.  DCS has never looked so good.  The FOV of the Pimax is a complete game changer.  This is coming from a guy that felt VR, in general, was/is a game changer.  The first time I experienced the sim in VR was a day I will never forget.  That day has been replaced with the first time I experienced DCS in VR on a Pimax.  

I wouldn't be saying this without your advice contained in that video.  Sir, I salute you!

Anytime brother!

OpenXR is another beast to understand in the beginning but it does improve performance.  It is different though than most OpenXR setups with PIMAX.  If you go to set it up, holler on this forum.  I used it and saw a decent performance increase, but like I stated above, it does not support OBS OpenVR.  THAT being said, OBS just released a brand new version a few days ago I downloaded.  I did see something in there about OpenXR, so it might have fixed the issue.  It did not work with the OpenVR plugin so I deleted it and went back to SteamVR.  I may give it another shot.  If I do, I will make a video on it.  Really glad the video above helped you out!

[Mistermann]

On 9/8/2022 at 5:34 PM, edmuss said:

Now go play with openxr and it gets better

Initial experience ... 

I am absolutely sure this is a "me problem".  I followed the instructions in this video which make it appear there's really nothing to do but install a couple of programs, double click and voila everything works great.

 

Unfortunately for me, my experience was very poor.  My SteamVR FPS sits around 45 in the Hornet Free Flight mission.  It drops to 20 when using OpenXR as outlined in the video above.  I am sure there are tweaks I need to do in openxr somewhere, but I just didn't have the patience to tinker and waste a bunch of time just to get a few frames here or there above what SteamVR is currently delivering.  

@edmuss -- how much "better" do things get?  I am definitely willing to make the time commitment if there are significant improvements over SteamVR.  Right now, its all relevant to this virtual pilot - Pimax experience blows my old Rift-S experience away.  AND, I have a long term VR headset that likely won't be fully realized until my next PC upgrade.

 

 

[edmuss]

From the very start of @nikoel monster thread on running openxr...

On 3/17/2022 at 9:33 AM, nikoel said:

OpenXR for WMR Headsets & others - Quickstart Guide

IF YOU CAME HERE FROM SIM VR GUY'S  OR SOME OTHER YOUTUBE VIDEO PLEASE FORGET WHAT YOU HAVE "LEARNED" AND READ THIS GUIDE BEFORE POSTING AND ASKING WHY THE INSTRUCTIONS SHOWCASED DON'T WORK. THE VIDEOS USE OUTDATED METHODS, SKIP STEPS AND ARE JUST PURE CLICKBAIT. THEY ARE PRIMARILY DESIGNED TO PUSH YOU TO BUY HEADSETS THROUGH THEIR AFFILIATE LINKS; WORSE STILL, THEY ARE USING HARD WORK OF OTHER PEOPLE TO DO THIS. THIS IS A HUGE DRAG ON OPEN COMPOSITE AND OPENXR DEVELOPERS WHO NOW ASSISTING PEOPLE IN DISCORD INSTEAD OF MAKING THE APP BETTER

Pimax is slightly different implementation from WMR but from what I understand it should all work the same.

I see a consistent 10fps or so improvement switching from steamvr to openxr, this is for identical resolutions and settings.  Clarity is better with openxr and there are a whole host of advantages both from the runtime and conferred through openxr toolkit.

Because of the way that openxr renders the frames it's much smoother than steamvr, particularly when reprojection isn't used.  With reprojection enabled it grants you the ability to reproject at multiple fractions of the refresh rate rather than just half as steamvr does, this means you can still be achieving perfectly smooth, stutter free VR ar 30 fps.  The reprojection isn't quite as good as steamvr with regards to the artifacts but it's getting better all the time.