Query regarding joystick options in special

[markturner1960]

As per title, can the devs ( or ayone!) explain the different options ( Linear / non linear / displaced FFB) and the relative function and effects please? 

[markturner1960]

I would really appreciate a reply from the devs on this, surely not too much to ask? 

[Bucic]

I'd like to know this as well. Aren't there any tooltips when you hover the mouse cursor over the options?

[markturner1960]

Not to my notice, no. I have tried all 3 ( with my FFB stick) I cant see any discernible difference between the first 2 options. The third gives me a weird issue whereby the joystick centre is displaced forwards - I can think what is going on and why.....it would be very handy for the devs to comment.....

[Bucic]

On 1/12/2023 at 2:45 PM, markturner1960 said:

Not to my notice, no. I have tried all 3 ( with my FFB stick) I cant see any discernible difference between the first 2 options. The third gives me a weird issue whereby the joystick centre is displaced forwards - I can think what is going on and why.....it would be very handy for the devs to comment.....

That one is self-explanatory It mirrors the actual kinematics of the real F-5 stick which has the neutral pitch position forward of the geometric center, as is the case with most aeroplanes in the world.

Now, did you notice that the range of motion in pitch Vs roll channels also differs?

[markturner1960]

Thanks, I had not noticed that with the pitch and roll.....surely the "neutral" pitch position varies according to airspeed etc ? In the F5 as well as the Tomcat & Harrier for example, I have to constantly trim  to a varying neutral postion to achieve level flight as I accelerate or decelaerate. I cant see the reason or advantage for making the neutral position ( and by this I am assuming its where control surfaces are zeroed) forward of the centre. That just surely loses you a lot of stick travel? 

I am assuming you have a FFB stick, which one do you use and how do you have it set up in DCS for the F5? 

[Bucic]

If you mix in trimming into this we'll get nowhere. No, neutral position I mentioned is neutral, not "neutral" As in the position the stick (EDIT: in the actual real aircraft) centers into while hands-off if it came straight from the factory, with the trim hat untouched and unspoiled

 

Edited January 15, 2023 by Bucic

[markturner1960]

OK, I will explore this some more...meantime could you share your set up etc as I asked? If you have working nicely and as you should for the F5, I would be very keen to replicate so I can try.....do you use BrunnerDx or CLS2? if the latter, whats your profile..how do you have trim bound,.....etc 

 

Thanks! 

Edited January 15, 2023 by markturner1960

[Bucic]

I've got trim mapped to that cross-shaped thingy

I do not own any proper flight controls, let alone FFB-enabled equipment.

[Bucic]

20 hours ago, markturner1960 said:

Thanks, I had not noticed that with the pitch and roll.....surely the "neutral" pitch position varies according to airspeed etc ? In the F5 as well as the Tomcat & Harrier for example, I have to constantly trim  to a varying neutral postion to achieve level flight as I accelerate or decelaerate. I cant see the reason or advantage for making the neutral position ( and by this I am assuming its where control surfaces are zeroed) forward of the centre. That just surely loses you a lot of stick travel? 

I am assuming you have a FFB stick, which one do you use and how do you have it set up in DCS for the F5? 

Constant trimming is normal in A/C not equipped with autotrim. That's why autotrim is a feat and I'm not aware of non-fly-by-wire A/C equipped with autotrim system. If any Avia history expert could chime in...

TLDR: real A/C stick position is most often not in the center of the stick travel because the elevator travel is not symmetrical. In all conventional designs elevator travel for "pitch down" is far smaller than for "pitch up."

In A/C with mechanical controls it is the direct result of linking the elevator directly to the stick. Any significant departure in stick pitch channel Vs the elevator travel would likely require some additional lever setup voodoo to achieve just that.

Lastly, enable some non-floating external view of the F-5 and do the controls travel test. You'll see how vastly disproportional the pitch up/down travel is on the elevator.

Sorry for my choppy responses. I rushed to answer your initial concern and didn't have time to reply to the rest.

Edited January 15, 2023 by Bucic

[markturner1960]

OK, Thanks! I have playing with it and once you get used to how it works, the displaced neutral option is nice to use in the F5...for anyone else interested who does have the Brunner, I have mapped trim to the buttons in CLS2, as well as in the sim. As far as I can tell, this does not give " double input", if you dont do this, then the stick moves in reality as you trim it, but DCS does not know you are trimming, so the trim dials etc will not record your inputs...

I have attached my profile here is anyone is interested

DCS F5.zcs

[Bucic]

Could you please verify and post your findings?

 

 

Edited January 15, 2023 by Bucic

[markturner1960]

I will look tomorrow…..however, as I understand it, there are 2 options: CLS2 software from Brunner whereby you can set up a profile to behave how you want (not enabling hydraulics is supposed to give you forces varying with airspeed) and using BrunnerDX, which gives you whatever is coded into the module by the developers. This could be a whole range of effects or nothing. Currently I don’t have an in depth understanding of what is to be expected from the various modules, apart from the Tomcat, which has decent effects. I am told by Razbam devs that the Harrier has nothing coded as none of the devs own an FFB stick…..

However, something does not quite make sense with the above as when using the CLS2 software, you get more and better effects in the Tomcat than other jets. CLS2 is supposed to provide canned effects, but it does not know which plane you are flying ( I don’t think) and the profile will feel the same whatever jet you fly……but in the Tomcat, it does not! 
 

I have no idea what FFB effects are supposed to be available in the F5 - questions like that seem to fall on deaf ears

Edited January 15, 2023 by markturner1960

[Bucic]

Judging by the options in the 'Special' tab FFB is implemented for DCS F-5E and as long as we avoid third party implementation and thus additional factors, I could well be able to tell whether the implementation is correct or not. Since you're probably one of the few owners of the F-5E module with FFB I think you'd do the F-5 crowd a service if you could try reproducing/testing the issues listed in this post (right above)

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/313855-query-regarding-joystick-options-in-special/?do=findComment&comment=5131460

I'm adding one more thing to play with (the limiter).

 

[nairb121]

On 1/15/2023 at 3:19 PM, markturner1960 said:

I will look tomorrow…..however, as I understand it, there are 2 options: CLS2 software from Brunner whereby you can set up a profile to behave how you want (not enabling hydraulics is supposed to give you forces varying with airspeed) and using BrunnerDX, which gives you whatever is coded into the module by the developers. This could be a whole range of effects or nothing. Currently I don’t have an in depth understanding of what is to be expected from the various modules, apart from the Tomcat, which has decent effects. I am told by Razbam devs that the Harrier has nothing coded as none of the devs own an FFB stick…..

However, something does not quite make sense with the above as when using the CLS2 software, you get more and better effects in the Tomcat than other jets. CLS2 is supposed to provide canned effects, but it does not know which plane you are flying ( I don’t think) and the profile will feel the same whatever jet you fly……but in the Tomcat, it does not! 
 

I have no idea what FFB effects are supposed to be available in the F5 - questions like that seem to fall on deaf ears

 

CLS2Sim uses a vJoy device to receive FFB effects from DCS, that's how modules with FFB support (like the F-14 for example) can send shaker effects. It only does effects though, not stick position or force, which is why it uses its own internal trim rather than DCS's.

The F-5's FFB implementation doesn't provide any shaker effects that I'm aware of, all it does as far as I know is basic recentering, trim, and the aileron limiter at 50% lateral deflection.

[markturner1960]

Ah, thank you....slowly the pieces of the puzzle are getting arranged...! 

[markturner1960]

On 1/15/2023 at 9:30 PM, Bucic said:

Judging by the options in the 'Special' tab FFB is implemented for DCS F-5E and as long as we avoid third party implementation and thus additional factors, I could well be able to tell whether the implementation is correct or not. Since you're probably one of the few owners of the F-5E module with FFB I think you'd do the F-5 crowd a service if you could try reproducing/testing the issues listed in this post (right above)

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/313855-query-regarding-joystick-options-in-special/?do=findComment&comment=5131460

I'm adding one more thing to play with (the limiter).

 

Hi Buccic, sure, I would be very happy to provide whatever information I can ! I cant test the first one, as I only have a FFB joystick on my rig currently, but anyone else with a normal stick and the module can check this. 

Regarding the forces affected by airspeed, using Brunner CLS2 and my F5 profile, I dont get any noticeable variation in force as airspeed increases. This is something that you should be able to replicate within the CLS profiles, However, I would say that I have not yet figured out how to do this. I have tried messing around with the curves but not got very far. If someone who knows the Brunner software better than I understand it can say how to set the curves etc to replicate this, I would be grateful! 

[nairb121]

4 hours ago, markturner1960 said:

Hi Buccic, sure, I would be very happy to provide whatever information I can ! I cant test the first one, as I only have a FFB joystick on my rig currently, but anyone else with a normal stick and the module can check this. 

Regarding the forces affected by airspeed, using Brunner CLS2 and my F5 profile, I dont get any noticeable variation in force as airspeed increases. This is something that you should be able to replicate within the CLS profiles, However, I would say that I have not yet figured out how to do this. I have tried messing around with the curves but not got very far. If someone who knows the Brunner software better than I understand it can say how to set the curves etc to replicate this, I would be grateful! 

Here's my F-5 profile, you're welcome to give it a try if you like.

F-5.zcs

[markturner1960]

Thanks, I have tried it out, I upped the FFB forces to 40% & 20% as they were very light. However, i could not discern any increase in forces with airspeed, have you been able to replicate this? Am I missing something? 

[nairb121]

Are you sure CLS2Sim is properly connecting to DCS? It should show in the CLS2Sim window, once you're in a mission, that it's connected and receiving information. Otherwise you'll need to check and make sure the DCS plugin is properly installed.

[markturner1960]

Yes, positive its all connected as it should be....elevator and aileron boxes both green, everything is as I expect from a FFB stick, to test, I tried holding a banked turn at various speeds and increased and decreased the speed, but I could not discern the stick needng more force as I accelearted or the opposite as the jet got slower......

[nairb121]

I'll send you a DM so we don't derail this thread any further.

[Bucic]

That might be of interest.